Does the run score?
 

FED, R3, 2 outs, 2 strikes on the batter. Pitcher in windup position not paying attention to R3. R3 takes off for home. Pitcher begins windup, but R3 has just a huge jump that he crosses home plate before the ball gets to the batter. The batter watches the pitch right down the middle of the strike zone for strike three.

Score it or not?

TwoBits,

No, the run does not score.

However, the R3 has a MAJOR contract in his future.

JM

As JM says, no score. Batter was 3rd out before reaching first base.

nice question...no run...see bossman72 and others

Could you reference that for me, please?

I see 9.1.1 Situation G where the batter strikes before the runner crosses, but I don't know why the run doesn't count when the runner crossed before strike 3.
Seems like the run should count to me. What am I missing?

mick,

It goes to the definiton of "a play" as used in 4.09(b)Ex.(1):

Now though the rules use "a play" in a number of different ways, the text of the rules never defines it.

In this context, the universal interpretation is that "a play" begins when the pitcher initiates his delivery. Since the BR did not reach 1B safely, and it was the 3rd out, and the runner occupied 3B when the play began, his run does not score.

Likewise, if somehow the batter had hit a fly ball (without killing the R3) instead of striking out, and the ball were caught with less than 2 outs, the runner would be under a 7.10(a) retouch obligation.

JM

Thanks, JM, but ...

From a 1995 J/R:

It is a play if there is a
(1) tag or tag try of a runner
(2) tag or tag try of a base
(3) throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner
(4) rundown, or
(5) balk.

I understand that MLB and Fed will vary, but a pitch being considered a play must be related only to Fed (if it really is) and not to levels above [MLB] or below [LL]. ;)

Mick,

As I said above, the phrase "a play" has a number of different meanings. The J/R discussion you cite is in reference to appeals and baserunning awards as mentioned in 7.10 and 7.05(g).

J/R uses the phrase "continuous action" (which you will find nowhere in the rule book) to define the "related action" or "play" during which a run is nullified if the BR does not reach 1B.

JM

Would not the time of the pitch be a factor to be considered here? If the batter had fouled off the pitch, R3 would return to 3rd because he did not reach the plate before the TOP. So in the OP, he did not score before the TOP and the batter was retired for the third out and logically, no run scores.

JM,
Actually the J/R quote came from the definition *pairs* [Play or No Play].
I should have noted that.

Mick, the pitch is not the play. The play is the putout of BR. ;)

I can live with that.
And in the OP the runner scored before the play, while in the case given, the runner crossed during the play. :)

"Play" means different things in different situations. For throws OOP, it's the "a legitimate attempt to retire a runner" definition. For the play in this thread it's "beginning with TOP and ending when F1 again has the ball and all action is relaxed, and includes any appeals"

I would also say that a pitch is a Throw from one fielder to another in an attempt to get someone out. But that may be streaching it a bit. :D

I am on the side of those who believe the run doesn't count. However, this is the problem that is being debated in my association:

FED Rule 9-1-1 Exception: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in whcih the third out is made as follows:
a) by the batter-runner before he touches first base.

This is also OBR Rule 4.09a Exception 1.

The "batter-runner" is defined in FED Rule 2-7-3: A batter-runner is a palyer who has finished a time at bat until he is put out or until playing action ends.

Batter-runner is similarly defined in OBR Rule 2.00

In this situation, remember the pitch had not yet been ruled strike three until after R3 had crossed the plate. The debate we are having is that the batter had not finished his time at bat because the pitch had not yet crossed the plate and cannot considered a batter-runner. Therefore, rules referencing batter-runner do not apply here.

Well, there is certainly some agreement on that, and it seems to be common, but unwritten, knowledge.


Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

If the runnner crosses the plate is the game over ?
Do we wait to see if the batter strikes out ?

If the game is over in one case, why would it continue in another ?

Actually this happened late in an 11-2 blowout with the winning team being the team at bat in this situation.

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

FWIW,

I completely agree with PeteBooth's above post.

mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case. ;)

JM

How about the "potential winning run" and the "potential final out of the inning"?

Bottom of sixth, tie score, R3, 2 0ut.

PU has declared this the last inning due to darkness

R3 is winning run and B4 could be final out

:) Timed game? ...Or what Lord Byron said. ;)

Yeah, I kicked it.

That is the best explanation I've heard yet. I'll relay it to my association. Thanks!

Thanks, Pete, and I apologize for being dense.
I have to be missing something. :(

Are we not still going to let R1 keep 2nd base, but now with one or two outs?
The 1/2-inning continues.
In the OP the game could be over, or tied.

mick,

I believe Pete's point was that, even though the R1 was standing on 2B when the pitch reached the plate, since he had not reached 2B at the "TOP", 1B was still "occupied" by rule, and the batter did NOT become a runner on the third strike not caught.

JM

Thanks,JM.
Yet, I can find no relationship to Time of Pitch and taking a base away from a runner stealing any base, including home plate. In Pete's case the runner keeps his base. That case is exclusively applied to the batter, not to a preceding runner.
I do, however, find that a runner touching home plate before there are 3 outs is a score, and that a batter is not out until a third strike.... :)

Hi Mick:

How about this one

We have runners at the corners and one out.

B1 hits the ball to F6 who throws the ball to F4 and then on to F3 to complete the DP.

In the mean-time R3 already touched the plate WELL before the DP was executed.

If we go by your analysis R3's run should count becasue he scored Prior to the third out being registered.

IMO, the key is where is the runner at TOP.

Pete Booth

Aw, c'mon Pete. :)

mick,

The following is from the MLBUM (my emphasis):

So, in the OP, since the R3 had not yet touched home at the time the pitcher initiated his delivery, he "occupies" 3B at the beginning of this "play" (what J/R defines as the "continuous action" of the play).

Since the BR did not reach 1B base safely on the play, and was the 3rd out of the inning, no run can score on the play - even if a runner touches home before he is out.

Had the runner touched home prior to the pitcher initiating his delivery, then his run would score.

JM

JM,
Before I go on, thanks for the time you are spending on this. :)

Thanks for the reference from MLBUM. For me, it clearly defines Time of Pitch. But I do not think the OP is concerned with rules relating to retouches and dropped third strikes. The OP asks did the run count? Is there a section in MLBUM that answers the question of what determines a run? Below is what I found. And I still do not understand why the run by the runner stealing home, before the batter is called out on strikes, does not count.

I apologize for going my old 1995 J/R again, but it is the best source that I have.
[Please note, I do willingly concede to newer information that may be available.]

J/R - Chapter 10 Determining a run.

• A run can occur only if a runner<SUP>1</SUP> touches (or passes) each advance base<SUP>2</SUP>.
• However, there cannot be a run if a runner has touched (or passed) home base, but there is related action wherein
  • he is out.
• • he must return to another base
  • a third out occurs before the runner touches (or passes) home; this is called a time play

i. (example of force out removed and touching home before)
ii. (example of force out removed and touching home after)
iii. (example of R2 missing third with or without appeal)
<O:p

• • the third out is:

i. the batter- runner before touching (or passing) first base, or the batter-runner on an appeal for missing first, or when his batted ball is caught.
ii. another runner who is forced
iii. a leading runner on appeal. No runners following such runner can score.
<O:p

• Appeal Outs, Fourth Outs, and Determining a Run.

A third out (whether a typical third out or a superceding fourth out) occurs when the action creating the third out occurs; the timing of such third out is never retroactive. Whether the out is an appeal or a regular tag, the out actually occurs at the time the tag originates, and should be seen as such in relationship to another runner’s touch of home in trying to score on a time play.
<O:p
A determination of whether an out is a force out or not can be a factor in deciding if a run counts.
<O:p
The third out of an inning does not prevent the defense from getting a fourth out.
<O:p
A runner who touches (or passes) home with the apparent winning run does not terminate the game; a subsequent out is possible.

<O:p
<SUP>2</SUP> a run legally scored cannot be nullified by a subsequent action of the runner (i.e., runner makes unnecessary effort to return to third base in a mistaken belief that he had failed to retouch.