This is the classic internet response. “Accept my opinion or else.” :rolleyes:

Because I do not buy that steroid users were helped absent of other evidence, I need to shut up? Then I would call you ignorant because you have not challenged one of my claims with any facts. I even referenced cases of people that were proven to have taken (which were mostly pitchers by the way) and instead of showing numbers, test results or medical studies, you just dismiss the claims. The bottom line is not everyone believes or there are not many accepted studies that claim the results are all the aspect of steroids the way the media would like you to think their is. It is not like steroids are the only supplement people take to enhance their performance. And just about all these drugs were legal when we accused certain players for taking them.

Peace

I don't think so. Anabolic steroids have never been over the counter.
They are prescription only for medical purposes, not for performance enhancing purposes.

So

1. If a player is or was acquiring steroids with a prescription absent the medical purpose then he is or was acquiring them frauduently. ILLEGAL

2. If he is acquiring them without a prescription in the black market. ILLEGAL
Which is probably 99% of what's happening since they don't want a paper trail.


Is your point that since some players took steroids with no apparent success it therefore makes it ok? Since they were apparently unsuccessful in their attempt to cheat it is not cheating or illegal?

If B1 walks to the mound and takes a swing at F1, we throw him out of the game even if he doesn't make contact, because intent matters.

All drugs that people take that are not over the counter are not considered illegal or were not illegal at that time of when most are being accused of using them. And even drugs that you get over the counter in multiple situations are illegal in the NFL and definitely with the International Olympic Organization. And you can get steroids through a doctor and a prescription in many cases, but if you are an NFL player, you can still be suspended if the steroids are found in your system.

My point has always been that steroids and the usage of steroid success are well over played. And there are many factors players have success or failure of baseball players. Things like field sizes, expansion that has players that 25 years ago would never be playing, baseball construction, bat sizes, technology (video, training techniques, supplements, diet) and even the kinds of travel players have access to. Players are not taking the train anymore to games. And players make enough money they can train year-round unlike what was common when guys were playing in the 60s and before.

The drugs are only frowned upon now because they are illegal now. When McGuire was on his little run he prominently had in his locker Andro. It was not illegal at the time, now it is. I think most of this crap is all about the fact that people that are old and crotchety do not want to believe that someone was actually better than their old heroes when they were growing up. Even thought in every sport players have gotten bigger, faster, and stronger and for some reason we compare things that in other aspects of society would be absurd.

Peace

I think this says a lot about baseball today....
 

I think these people really hit the nail on the head.


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And here I was about to believe you when you said you had no agenda.

Your twisted logic about legal/illegal/banned/OTC/prescription is so convoluted it needs no response. You are practically arguing with yourself on that one.

As to facts about the effects of these drugs, would you accept the Mayo Clinic's word?Taking performance-enhancing drugs: Are you risking your health?

Human growth hormone (HGH): Does it slow aging process?

If that is having an agenda, so do you. And that agenda is not something I buy into. You can quote all the things you like; it is not going to change my mind. And I am certainly not trying to change your mind. Think what you want. The research is out there on all sides and you can look all of this up. Just do not be surprised when you run into things that do not think there is a great affect to steroids as you claim they have. And certainly a baseball player can get bigger. Steroids are not going to make them hit a baseball. If that is the case I should have taken steroids when I was a kid, I would be a Major League Baseball player.

And the funniest thing is the Mayo Clinic reference you have as if that is the only medical reference that matters. Next time tell me the Mayo's clinic opinion about alternative medicines to cure Cancer?

Peace

Originally Posted by Interested Ump
Time's up! Now time to shut up.

It's one thing to post an opinion, it's entirely another to post one that validates the use of anaboloc steroids.
wow Rut I'm going to cut you a hyooge chunk of slack and pass on further comment. You have dug yourself a hole so deep, I can't see the top of your head anyway. :eek:

I could have also provided references from NIH, several schools of medicine, etc. You have claimed there is no evidence, only opinion. I provided reputable medical references. Your response? "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts." And to try to attack the Mayo Clinics credibility. That's funny. Good luck with your irrational defense of your heros.

Translation: "I have my mind made up, don't bother me with facts."

You still don't understand the effect of steriods. Steriods simply help someone become a bit stronger, bigger, faster, than what they are. They build upon a base.

A weak hitting shortstop will be a slightly weaker hitting shortstop, and that might be enough to keep him in the game. Someone, like Bonds or Clemens, who possess talent will get an extra push that could make the difference between 60 home runs and 70 home runs, or 12 strike outs and 14 strike outs. Someone with no talent at all, will still have no talent at all. I have no idea which group you were in when you were a kid.

I was told
 

Working out produces natural toxins in the muscle.
Steroids remove these toxins and shorten muscle recovery time.
Working out over longer periods of time also becomes more addictive.
An athlete, who took years to gain an edge, cuts down that time period.
Steroid enhance the performance "peaks" which surge beyond natural ability.
These new performance plateaus which last longer periods of time are also diminished as steroids help one overcome them.
To suggest that steroids only helped somebody who already had the talent is very decieving, almost >BS<.
One little bit adds to another little bit and before long steroids have added a significant unfair advantage.

Huge weightlifters {ripped} become puny again after getting off the stuff.
Only time will tell what other damage was done.

Sorry. But a puny 90 pounder with no talent for baseball can take steriods again and again, and not be a better ball player.

Steriods will not, by themselves, make anyone a homerun hitter. The Mitchell report is full of names of journeyman players who used steriods and received just enough of an edge to remain journeman players longer than they would have otherwise.

None of this is BS. It has all been documented. The better the player performed before steroids, the better he performed after steroids.

An exaggeration. People who bulk up with steriods lose size after quitting, but they don't become puny unless other factors are at work. Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example, has been off steriods for years. He is measurably smaller than before, but puny?

This has nothing to do with understanding. I do not accept that steroids make you a better player. There are too many other factors, which for some reason no one ever wants to address, but I am the one not dealing with facts. :D

Here is the problem with what you said. Clemens struck out 20 twice and did so when he was much skinner and younger than he is now. Is not the size supposed to be a factor in steroid use?

Bonds was on pace to hit homeruns with McGuire and Sosa back in 96, but got hurt and missed big portions of the season.

I had some fielding talent and I was fast, I just could not hit a baseball consistently or very well. And steroids would not have made me a better player. You have to hit a curve ball consistently. Anyone can hit fast balls or at least I could.

Peace

It's like the movie Rocky. Rut in this case, is Rocky Balboa, and Apollo Creed is everything else on the forum. It's the tenth round. He's bloodied. Rut yells "Cut me, cut me!" And every time Rut falls, everyone says, "Stay down, Rut! Stay down!" But does he stay down?

No.

Like Rocky, he gets back up, and in the end he -- actually Rut loses really badly here. Okay, doesn't matter. Doesn’t matter. :D

The final bell has sounded and the fight has ended.

I'll leave it to the korean judge to determine the winner.