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Roger before Congress
Anybody else watching the Congressional hearing with Roger Clemens? He's coming off very badly. What an idiot.
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A liar being interrogated by liars. Gripping.
The "evidence" is piling up that Roger Clemens did use the juice, but these Congressmen should be ashamed of themselves for wasting everyone's time and taxpayer money with this grandstanding. |
I wonder whether Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, Adams, et al. ever foresaw the day when United States senators would be questioning athletes about what they had ingested or injected.
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RC wins Round 1
I watched the whole hearing, and while RC had some problems at times, The Rep. from Indiana took McNamee apart. He did not have to appear today, and keep in mind he faces perjury charges if it is proven he lied under oath. The bottom line I feel here is credibility. Brian McNamee testified he has lied to police and when questioned by authorities before. He is a disgrace.
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But that's the world we live in. It's all about ME and Congress feels they can get some exposure and maybe help them get votes. FWIW, Roger should blame himself and all the members of the players union. There was no policy and eventually this was going to happen. My problem with this whole thing is this: Either name ALL who have done the "juice" or none. We all know there were way more than 80 players who took the stuff. More like 700-800 IMO, Seileg is a coward. He should have simply said to Congress IN THE BEGINNING - It's MY bad, and then laid out his new policy and moved forward - End of Story similar to what the late Pete Rosell did when football had a rampant problem with steroid abuse in football. Commisioner Rosell did not give names etc. He simply set a policy and moved forward NOT backward. Pete Booth |
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Remember, Congress also has the transcripts of Andy Pettite agreeing with McNamee, or is he lying, too? I guess everybody but Roger could be lying....but I doubt it. |
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JJ |
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y is everyone all over clemens but not bonds?
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I couldn't care either way. All this steroids crap is interfering with the game of baseball. Too bad the media couldn't focus on pitchers and catchers reporting to spring training.
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it won't be long before they have a tournament for this on fantazsports.com. i swear they have a tournament for everything. its crazy.
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I found the questioning by Dan Burton to be hilarious. His characterization of McNamee, while seemingly correct, is clouded by the fact that he has a ton of skeletons in his closet also. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Clemens came across either purposefully unsosphisticated or just plain dumb as he rambled on and answered questions. I just can't understand why he would keep McNamee around after McNamee injected Debbie Clemens and Roger got completely ticked off about it. But then again, I have no comprehension of why athletes surround themselves with the people they do. Lawrence |
A disgraceful wasted over intrusion by people who ALLEGEDLY (or at least should) have better things to do.
A bunch of blow hards wanting to get their faces on TV and names in the press so they drag in Roger Clemens.. Personally, I dont care one way or the other.. if he broke the law.. thats not a Senate issue. Did he and the others taint baseball?? Well.. know what? That's not a senate issue either. That is a MLB and their fans issue. This is a pathetic fiasco on the part of congress. |
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The usage of illegal drugs <b>isn't</b> a Senate issue? Yer funny......:rolleyes: |
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Does not Petitte and Knolbach statement support McNamee? :D |
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JJ |
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IMO anyways....
It seems to me that there was indeed a ton of grandstanding by adults who have never grown up. I looked at Andy Pettitt and Chuck Knoblauch’s depositions and testimony before the committee as well as a fair bit of other documentation that the committee released yesterday. With few exceptions, what a bunch of bottom-dwelling, scum-sucking ditch pigs…..oops, sorry, didn't mean to demean our animal friends.... :). A Perfectly Performed Pirouette of Porcine CYA...
It all points up the bankruptcy of MLB to properly address issues in a timely manner. What did they do when the home run derby was going on? Can they seriously say that the ball was juiced? Certainly the players were, as we’ve come to understand (Mark, Barry, Sammy, Jose et al…). They’re trying to do as little as possible, and hope that we'll all ignore the owners, team officials and player's efforts to do whatever they want and pay for the priviledge of seeing these overblown princesses perform their chemically-induced magic. After all, better living through chemistry, right? The real issue for me is whether or not the Congress will remove the antitrust exemption from baseball. An antiquated exemption that may be mercifully coming to an end. Perhaps they should compete on the same level surface as every other sport or commercial enterprise in America. A reasoned look at the exemption can be found at http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/Courses/econ352jpw/readme/Baseball%20Prospectus%20-%20Ending%20Baseball's%20Antitrust%20Exemption.htm . Testing, testing, testing – would you believe now that baseball can structure and manage a testing program? I certainly don’t. This may be the lever to push Bud and the buds ‘n suds to accepting year round independent unannounced mandatory testing to clean up at least the perception that’s going around. Thanks for reading my rant - perhaps no raves here....;) |
For me, the pathetic part was that Congress somehow found a way to make it a partisan issue. Con-gress - an antonym for Pro-gress. (Admittedly trite, but apropos nonetheless.)
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I'm not sure what to make of that... sports cheats are Republicans and drug dealers are Democrats? What http://forums.s2kca.com/images/smilies/poop.gif It is almost like they are programmed to choose opposite sides on every issue, no matter how pointless. The fawning over Clemens was embarrassing. I almost expected one of the members to ask for his autograph. Still, McNamee's story held up better than Clemens' did, IMO. |
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Congress should not be dealing with the personal situation of one person. The committee is suppose to "oversight" actions not get into each case of illegal drug use. Peace |
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And now the Commish says that Belechick has been illegally taping since the year 2000. |
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Again, I say that this is a Baseball issue not a Congress Issue. This is a complete waste of time and OUR DAMNED MONEY! Who cares about this anyway as you cannot put talent in a syringe, Baseball will not negate anything, Baseball denied that this was going on, and again, who gives a $hit! Get off this crap and get these politicians back to doing their jobs (if they could figure out what that job was)!
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The press reports have not been complimentary to the esteemed members of this committee. You know how in news stories when a member of Congress is mentioned, there is frequently a party-state ID that follows (e.g. R-Texas). Well, I saw one report that said, in reference to the committee chairman "Henry Waxman, D-Middle Earth"... And this was not in a right-wing rag, either.
Anyway, the pressure must be getting to the politicians regarding this ridiculous charade, since now we have this (quoting from the Sporting News) Quote:
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Guys,
With the way the governement is expanding its reach into more and more of lives, and messing things up more and more, it is a relief when they do something that causes little damage like that steroid hearing! If it will keep them from fouling anything else up, let them do more hearings like this. |
Folks, it was the committee who invited RC and BM to Washington, Clemans did not demand a hearing. Waxman is a publicity hound, and he started this mess. To make his regrets for having it now is almost funny if it wasn't so sad.
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The funny thing about all of this, it shows why Barry Bonds did not want to make any statements publicly to the media about his situation. Clemens did everything the opposite that Bonds has done and people still believe he used steroids. Clemens is suing his accuser for liable, he came out and took on his accusers in the media and he went to Congress and even was willing to go under oath. And the result is the same. Everyone still thinks Clemens used something that he may not have used at all. This is why I have always said that this probing into the past is a waste of time. All someone has to do is accuse you and you are guilty of sin, no matter the circumstances. Peace |
Clemens' main attorney is a very prominent defense attorney from the Houston area. Obviously, he is not an idiot in the mental sense. But in the sense of how to handle this situation, he either gave his client idiotic advice, or his client refused to follow his advice.
The more that is revealed about Clemens (and Bonds, for that matter) in this steriod / HGH using situation, the more it hurts rather than helps. To believe Clemens, you have to not believe: 1) McNamee 2) Pettitte 3) Clemens' nanny 4) and even Clemens himself Why would McNamee only make up stuff about Clemens? Why was Clemens not at the party. Then at the party but didn't go in? Why was the accusation by McNamee that he gave Clemens' wife an injection of HGH a "colossial lie" and then the "collosial lie" is only that Roger himself was involved? Why does any athlete take injections of B-12 in his butt? Why is it incredulous that a person would keep gauze for years but not incredulous that a person would keep a golf receipt for years? Roger Clemens is willing to throw friends and family under the bus to protect his public reputation. Only problem is, by doing so, he has destroyed his public reputation. I'll place merit in the libel suit only when it actually makes it to trial. Don't hold your breath on that one. |
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Peace |
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That being said, I find McNamee to be very credible. I can picture Roger and his wife being injected. So, your theory is debunked, as I am a conservative Republican who is not blindly backing Clemens. Now if I only had a presidential candidate to get behind :mad: . |
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Isn't it government "of the people, for the people and by the people"? Although your normal joe citizen may not be able to 'demand' action by the congress, if you have enough political clout or can produce enough bad PR you can probably get most anything you want from congress. RC attorney had enough public interest/support and media attention to persuade the folks in Washington to open the circus act another day. So apparently a demand was made and congress succombed. Quote:
The probing is directly related to his profession and in a time frame where he was making millions off his performance. I have absolutely no problem with public, media and MLB probing. I have a huge problem with congressional probing, but that's a whole other issue. |
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Peace |
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Clemens is one but not alone in scumbag dep't of MLB; he had made a fortune before he started injecting. I refer first hand experiences to Interested Ump.
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And, of course the media and the public can have it both ways. Because Roger tried something different than Bonds means nothing WRT their guilt or innocence. As I said before, for Clemens to be innocent here, far too many people would have to be lying, including Clemens himself (since his story has changed). Anyone willing to throw his wife under the bus to protect his own reputation is a thoroughly dishonorable man. |
One other thing... while I agree completely that Waxman is a publicity hound, that this hearing was a huge waste of time and money, that Congress should be paying attention to more important things, that the partisan taking of sides in the hearing is either sad or comical (I can't decide which), that Waxman certainly could have not held the hearing regardless of what Clemens insisted on, etc., etc.,...
I do believe that MLB and the players union would have done NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, about the juicing players without the threat from Congress to step in. Without that, Donald Fehr would not have budged and there would STILL be no testing of players. |
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Peace |
My favorite part was Roger listing his flaws as "caring too much, giving too much and being too nice."
If his attorney scripted that, he should be fired. |
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And, again, I can have it both ways on this since it has nothing to do with whether or no they juiced. The evidence is very strong that both did. Different kinds of evidence for both, but both are cooked. And, rightly so. |
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The media and public can have it as many ways as they want The 'evidence' thus far presented to the public has undeniably convicted ol Roger and Barry as well as OJ Quote:
A player not on the juice who hits 30 hr and 35 warning track outs in a year goes on the juice and now hits 38 hrs, 5 doubles off the wall and 22 warning track outs has just become a 'better player' by virtue of added strength. His ability to identify pitches, anticipate how he will be pitched, hand eye coordination and swing mechanics, all necessary talents to play in MLB, has not been affected but his added strength and increased durability makes a big difference. If you don't see this you need to open your eyes. Quote:
How many 42 year old pitchers not on the juice are still in the game? Not many Maybe because: Most 42 year old power pitchers have lost significant speed, subject to arm problems, pitch many less innings and don't have near as good a winning % as they did in their prime. The fact that Roger has stayed consistent in these areas despite his age is just one more reason to believe he's guilty |
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My point is that you have to do better than read what the media tells you. I have no idea if Clemens used, but there are people in recent history that we can point towards and see similar success if you know your history. Someone always told me, in order to know your history; you must know your past. If you knew baseball history, you would know that there are similar players with similar success as Clemens. And you would also know that there are many more examples of players that tested positive, that were journey men at best in baseball and were not even close to breaking records. And everything from medical technology has helped prolong the careers of many players during the current times. Just look at someone that would have had knee surgery in the 60s and how their career would be almost over, to now when someone has major knee surgery, they might be back in a few months to play again. Peace |
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You need to do your homework on steriods an HGH. Neither will turn a journeyman into a superstar. They build on what talent one has, improving it a providing an "edge" for that ability level. Several "journeymen" who tested positive credit the drugs for allowing them to have the career they had. Without that edge, they believe they wouldn't have had a career at all. The benefit from the illegal substances differed greatly with those who took them. |
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People take all kinds of things that have no benefit, but they believe it does give them something so they continue to take it. I went to my Orthopedic Doctor after tearing my hamstring during the football season. I asked the doctor about taking Icy Hot and other muscle stimulation creams and medicines and he told me flat out they have little or no benefit to make you heal an injury. But people take them and if it makes them feel it works, it cannot do any harm. But there was no medical backing to prove it did anything more than just plain rest or inactivity. So because someone claims they were helped, does not mean they were medically helped. And studies of drugs often give people things that are not the drug to prove the real affects of drugs rather than just what someone thinks. People who take many drugs think they help, that is why they take them. Peace |
Originally Posted by CO ump
It doesn't improve their natural talent, it just makes them stronger. A player not on the juice who hits 30 hr and 35 warning track outs in a year goes on the juice and now hits 38 hrs, 5 doubles off the wall and 22 warning track outs has just become a 'better player' by virtue of added strength. His ability to identify pitches, anticipate how he will be pitched, hand eye coordination and swing mechanics, all necessary talents to play in MLB, has not been affected but his added strength and increased durability makes a big difference.. Quote:
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What is your academic, scientific and personal experience in clinical, human study of sports performance? A Ph.D. in at least pharmacology, biokinesiology or, at the least, human physiology would be a minimum educational requirement. We will pass on the intimacy of your athletic performance training credentials. I'm in a good mood. :D How many citations have you studied, with whom did you pass/fail your examination of these citations? What is your relevant background in the determination of qualifying scientific studies? How many pharmacologically enhanced athletes have you personally trained (or observed their training, with records and the determination of those clinical relevancy of those records)? "Folks like you" would assuredly have these available. If not, folks like me can call you on that BS. Because without a good chunk of the qualifications above, that is all your post is, BS. Lessee, 24 hours, folks like me will give folks like you 24 hours to come up with your answers. :D Fair enough? |
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Taking steroids coupled with an aggressive workout program does not increase muscle beyond the bodies natural ability. Smokin dope doesn't give you a high. A double expresso doesn't get you wired Taking Vicadin doesn't kill the pain It's all placebo |
Well lets see
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Randy Johnson is much like Ryan, a freak of nature, but still hasn't been able to maintain much in the last five years. Shilling and Clemens have made it as far as they have because much like Ryan they have great mechanics and location. But Ryan and Shilling both tailed off tremendously after the age of 40. Don't have the stats but Roger Clemens had one of his best years at 40. Shilling has struggled tremendously the last few years and his performance last season was not much to write about. So mechanics help longevity, but the help of steroids has been proven to heal the body faster, thus allowing the user to operate at a high level of performance each time out compared to the person who does not take them. Thanks David |
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Those that argue to the difference have either a lack of practical knowledge or a personal agenda ala Mr. Rutledge. |
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It's one thing to post an opinion, it's entirely another to post one that validates the use of anaboloc steroids.:( |
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OMG. :confused: |
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I also think that if drug use was such a big deal, then test for HGH. Peace |
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Because I do not buy that steroid users were helped absent of other evidence, I need to shut up? Then I would call you ignorant because you have not challenged one of my claims with any facts. I even referenced cases of people that were proven to have taken (which were mostly pitchers by the way) and instead of showing numbers, test results or medical studies, you just dismiss the claims. The bottom line is not everyone believes or there are not many accepted studies that claim the results are all the aspect of steroids the way the media would like you to think their is. It is not like steroids are the only supplement people take to enhance their performance. And just about all these drugs were legal when we accused certain players for taking them. Peace |
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They are prescription only for medical purposes, not for performance enhancing purposes. So 1. If a player is or was acquiring steroids with a prescription absent the medical purpose then he is or was acquiring them frauduently. ILLEGAL 2. If he is acquiring them without a prescription in the black market. ILLEGAL Which is probably 99% of what's happening since they don't want a paper trail. Quote:
If B1 walks to the mound and takes a swing at F1, we throw him out of the game even if he doesn't make contact, because intent matters. |
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Peace |
I think this says a lot about baseball today....
I think these people really hit the nail on the head.
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Your twisted logic about legal/illegal/banned/OTC/prescription is so convoluted it needs no response. You are practically arguing with yourself on that one. As to facts about the effects of these drugs, would you accept the Mayo Clinic's word? Quote:
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And the funniest thing is the Mayo Clinic reference you have as if that is the only medical reference that matters. Next time tell me the Mayo's clinic opinion about alternative medicines to cure Cancer? Peace |
Originally Posted by Interested Ump
Time's up! Now time to shut up. It's one thing to post an opinion, it's entirely another to post one that validates the use of anaboloc steroids. Quote:
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A weak hitting shortstop will be a slightly weaker hitting shortstop, and that might be enough to keep him in the game. Someone, like Bonds or Clemens, who possess talent will get an extra push that could make the difference between 60 home runs and 70 home runs, or 12 strike outs and 14 strike outs. Someone with no talent at all, will still have no talent at all. I have no idea which group you were in when you were a kid. |
I was told
Working out produces natural toxins in the muscle.
Steroids remove these toxins and shorten muscle recovery time. Working out over longer periods of time also becomes more addictive. An athlete, who took years to gain an edge, cuts down that time period. Steroid enhance the performance "peaks" which surge beyond natural ability. These new performance plateaus which last longer periods of time are also diminished as steroids help one overcome them. To suggest that steroids only helped somebody who already had the talent is very decieving, almost >BS<. One little bit adds to another little bit and before long steroids have added a significant unfair advantage. Huge weightlifters {ripped} become puny again after getting off the stuff. Only time will tell what other damage was done. |
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Steriods will not, by themselves, make anyone a homerun hitter. The Mitchell report is full of names of journeyman players who used steriods and received just enough of an edge to remain journeman players longer than they would have otherwise. None of this is BS. It has all been documented. The better the player performed before steroids, the better he performed after steroids. Quote:
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Bonds was on pace to hit homeruns with McGuire and Sosa back in 96, but got hurt and missed big portions of the season. I had some fielding talent and I was fast, I just could not hit a baseball consistently or very well. And steroids would not have made me a better player. You have to hit a curve ball consistently. Anyone can hit fast balls or at least I could. Peace |
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No. Like Rocky, he gets back up, and in the end he -- actually Rut loses really badly here. Okay, doesn't matter. Doesn’t matter. :D |
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I'll leave it to the korean judge to determine the winner. |
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