sanctuary or not ?

btdt · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 01, 2007, 05:32pm

R-1, R-2 No out
Fly ball to deep center caught by F-8
R-1 tags and advances to 2nd
R-2 fails to tag up and is slow in returning to 2nd
Ball comes into F-6 covering 2nd
F-6 tags R-1 and then steps on 2nd for the appeal play
Is this a double play?
or
Does R-1 have sanctuary on 2nd even though the base still belongs to R-2?

Can't figure out which rule would cover this.

Mrumpiresir · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 01, 2007, 06:03pm

I didn't look up the rule but once r2 advanced, r1 can occupy 2nd base as long as r2 is not also on second. I would call r2 out on the appeal and r1 is safe at second.

David Emerling · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 01, 2007, 06:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by btdt

R-1, R-2 No out
Fly ball to deep center caught by F-8
R-1 tags and advances to 2nd
R-2 fails to tag up and is slow in returning to 2nd
Ball comes into F-6 covering 2nd
F-6 tags R-1 and then steps on 2nd for the appeal play
Is this a double play?
or
Does R-1 have sanctuary on 2nd even though the base still belongs to R-2?

Can't figure out which rule would cover this.

Damn - that's a good question!

Quite frankly, I'm not 100% sure what the correct answer is to this.

I'm going to give it a stab though:

One thing I'm sure about is that R2 is definitely out for leaving early. I don't think there can be much debate about that.

At first, I thought that the order in which the events occurred might make a difference:

SCENARIO A
1. a tag of R1 followed by,
2. an appeal on R2

-or-

SCENARIO B
1. appeal on R2 followed by,
2. a tag of R1

The fact that R2 left early cannot be considered a factor by the umpire until a proper appeal is made. Until the defense makes an appeal, everything R2 did is considered legal no matter how obvious it was that he left early. Consequently, if the first thing that happens is that R1 is tagged (as in SCENARIO A), the umpire should rule him safe since 2nd base is available. The fact that R2 left early is not a factor until an appeal is made -so- at this point in time R2 is considered to have legally left 2nd base. A subsequent appeal on R2 should cause the umpire to rule him out - after all, he did leave early.

So, in SCENARIO A, R1 is safe and R2 is out. This was the order in which the defense took action in the original post.

Now, let's say the defense does it the other way around (as in SCENARIO B.) Would that change anything?

The first thing the defense does is make an appeal on R2. He should be declared out since, as before, he did leave early. That frees up 2nd base for R1. A subsequent tag of R1 should not be recognized. R1 is safe.

In both scenarios the outcome is the same: R1 safe - R2 out.

That's my analysis. I'll keep an open mind to be convinced otherwise, however.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

greymule · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 01, 2007, 07:12pm

This doesn't seem that difficult to me (so I'm probably missing something). As I see it, R1 (who has tagged up and advanced) can occupy 2B legally until R2 returns and touches the bag. Since R1 was tagged before R2 returned, R1 is safe at 2B. On the appeal, R2 is of course out. In either scenario, R1 is safe and R2 is out.

If R2 had returned to 2B and both runners were on 2B, then R2 (the preceding runner) would have the right to 2B, and R1 would be out when tagged. But since in that case R2 would be back at 2B, the appeal will come too late, so R2 would be safe.

DG · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 01, 2007, 09:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by btdt

R-1, R-2 No out
Fly ball to deep center caught by F-8
R-1 tags and advances to 2nd
R-2 fails to tag up and is slow in returning to 2nd
Ball comes into F-6 covering 2nd
F-6 tags R-1 and then steps on 2nd for the appeal play
Is this a double play?
or
Does R-1 have sanctuary on 2nd even though the base still belongs to R-2?

Can't figure out which rule would cover this.

Is this a double play? No. R2 is out for tag of a base left early and R1 is on 2B for legally advancing.

David Emerling · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 02, 2007, 12:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by btdt

R-1, R-2 No out
Fly ball to deep center caught by F-8
R-1 tags and advances to 2nd
R-2 fails to tag up and is slow in returning to 2nd
Ball comes into F-6 covering 2nd
F-6 tags R-1 and then steps on 2nd for the appeal play
Is this a double play?
or
Does R-1 have sanctuary on 2nd even though the base still belongs to R-2?

Can't figure out which rule would cover this.

I think the confusion on this play may stem from a rather counter-intuitive interference-type ruling.

Play: R1 & R3. The pitcher picks off R3 who is caught in a rundown between 3rd and home. As the rundown progresses, R1 advances to 2nd and ends up on 3rd when R3 is called out on interference of some sort. Even though R1 is standing on 3rd at the end of the play - he has to be sent back to 2nd because R3 is considered to be "occupying" 3rd at the time - even though he's not really standing on the base.

At least, I think that's the ruling.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

greymule · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 02, 2007, 09:25am

At least, I think that's the ruling.

You are correct, and I'm beginning to see the parallel to the OP. However, I think there are two key differences between the OP and the INT play: (1) the INT created a dead ball, so the runner who has reached 3B cannot be tagged out and is simply sent back to 2B; and (2) INT creates a special case where the rules makers wanted to "punish" the runner's violation.

The appeal out in the OP is in the end simply the runner being put out, the same as if he was tagged halfway to 3B. R2 has not committed a violation such that he is declared out. R1 is safe at second and stays there.