What is the Point of Playing in the Rain?

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Even if football is not on, the average public does not care. Maybe you are one of those guys that still think most people are that crazy about MLB and the playoffs. The reality is anytime they have to go head up with another sport, they lose. And you are not going to get many fans than a Sunday night no matter what is on.

Personally I do not care why they did or did not play the game. It was just another game that I did not watch. And I am sure most of the country.

Peace

You cannot compare baseball to other sports in terms of ratings, JR, without tweaking numbers. Baseball plays 162 games a year for 6-7 months. They play every day of the week except for two specific dates (two dates on which no major pro sport plays, BTW). Football plays, for the most part, on one day a week--Sundays (I'm not including Monday Night Football here because that's one game and not most/all of the NFL).

I absolutely love the NFL, but I can assure you of this: if they played 7 days a week, I'd tune out. As it is now, I hate it when they play on Thursday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday during a given week. This overexposure or oversaturation results in lower viewing ratings, but that doesn't mean its popularity has declined. For another year, MLB recorded record attendance. I believe that's the third or fourth year in a row, too. Hardly the sign of a sport in which "most Americans" have little interest.

You also cannot define its popularity by citing participation among the nation's high schoolers, because, among other reasons, football, for example, has a bigger roster and necessarily requires more participants in order to function. Also, baseball is not considered a big "money sport" for one main reason: baseball parks at high schools and colleges lack the ability to draw fans in the area of 30,000 to 100,000, which is something football can do. Even soccer and basketball can draw more fans. So, financial logistics will determine the apparent "popularity" to which you allude.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by UMP25

You cannot compare baseball to other sports in terms of ratings, JR, without tweaking numbers. Baseball plays 162 games a year for 6-7 months. They play every day of the week except for two specific dates (two dates on which no major pro sport plays, BTW). Football plays, for the most part, on one day a week--Sundays (I'm not including Monday Night Football here because that's one game and not most/all of the NFL).

Baseball is no longer "America's pastime" Baseball is strictly a Regional sport

If the Indians win and play the Rockies - How many people will watch that series? You might have some "novice" fans because the Rockies are this years Cinderella team but by and large if there is an Indian Rockies World Series watch the ratings plummet.

Also, the TBS network is not seen in every home. One of the games ened at around 2 - 2:30 eastern Time - Who stayed up to watch that.

The NBA , NHL and MLB have all become Regional Sports and their playoffs are on cable outlets.

If the NBA , NHL and MLB had great ratings do you think the major networks would give the playoff package to these "other outlet' cable networks.

Therefore in a nutshell, unless your team is in the playoffs no one cares.

When MLB allowed BIG market teams to have their own cable outlets (ie, MSG, YES FSNY etc. ) is when baseball became a Regional Sport.


Also, Football is on TV almost every night of the week if you include College Football.

Forget about MLB competing with the NFL, MLB cannot compete with local programming which is why CBS / NBC/ ABC/FOX do not shell out the "big bucks" to televise these events.

In the future, you will be lucky to see the World Series on a major netwrok.

Pete Booth

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by UMP25

You cannot compare baseball to other sports in terms of ratings, JR, without tweaking numbers. Baseball plays 162 games a year for 6-7 months. They play every day of the week except for two specific dates (two dates on which no major pro sport plays, BTW). Football plays, for the most part, on one day a week--Sundays (I'm not including Monday Night Football here because that's one game and not most/all of the NFL).

I absolutely love the NFL, but I can assure you of this: if they played 7 days a week, I'd tune out. As it is now, I hate it when they play on Thursday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday during a given week. This overexposure or oversaturation results in lower viewing ratings, but that doesn't mean its popularity has declined. For another year, MLB recorded record attendance. I believe that's the third or fourth year in a row, too. Hardly the sign of a sport in which "most Americans" have little interest.

You also cannot define its popularity by citing participation among the nation's high schoolers, because, among other reasons, football, for example, has a bigger roster and necessarily requires more participants in order to function. Also, baseball is not considered a big "money sport" for one main reason: baseball parks at high schools and colleges lack the ability to draw fans in the area of 30,000 to 100,000, which is something football can do. Even soccer and basketball can draw more fans. So, financial logistics will determine the apparent "popularity" to which you allude.

Here are the selected weekend TV ratings measured by those households in america wired directly to the Nielsen Rating Service. a rating point is one percent of the total available number of tv hourseholds(77 million)

NFL regionalized: New England Patriots-Dallas Cowboys
Sunday, 4:30 EDT
18.5 Rating (14.2 million homes)
CBS

CBS' highest-rated regular-season game since 1998.

MLB playoffs: Cleveland Indians-Boston Red Sox
Saturday, 8
7.0 (5.4 million)
Fox

Even with 2006 coverage of Detroit Tigers-Oakland Athletics.


College football: LSU-Kentucky
Saturday, 3:30
4.4 (3.4 million)
CBS


MLB playoffs: Arizona Diamondbacks-Colorado Rockies

Sunday 8pm EDT
3.5 (2.7 million)
TBS

Down 39% from comparable St. Louis Cardinals-New York Mets on Fox last year.TBS is almost certain to finish with the lowest prime-time LCS ratings ever.

But we will always have that game under the umbrellas to remember.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UMP25

You cannot compare baseball to other sports in terms of ratings, JR, without tweaking numbers. Baseball plays 162 games a year for 6-7 months. They play every day of the week except for two specific dates (two dates on which no major pro sport plays, BTW). Football plays, for the most part, on one day a week--Sundays (I'm not including Monday Night Football here because that's one game and not most/all of the NFL).

Obviously we are talking about pro football as it relates to ratings. If some small conference in college plays on some Wednesday, the average public are not watching those games.

Originally Posted by UMP25

I absolutely love the NFL, but I can assure you of this: if they played 7 days a week, I'd tune out. As it is now, I hate it when they play on Thursday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday during a given week. This overexposure or oversaturation results in lower viewing ratings, but that doesn't mean its popularity has declined. For another year, MLB recorded record attendance. I believe that's the third or fourth year in a row, too. Hardly the sign of a sport in which "most Americans" have little interest.

Attendance is different than who is watching at home. There are college games that have more attendance than they ever had in 100 years of football, but the there are millions at home watching those games in many cases. And I am not talking about post season games where the champion will be determined by the end of the game. And I bet that more people watched the New Orleans Saints (0-5 going into the game) and the Seattle Seahawks than the game we are discussing here.

Also I have worked Freshman basketball games that had more people in attendance than almost every HS varsity (and do not get me started about college games from JUCO to D-1) that I worked this past spring and that includes a Saturday or Sunday game when there is nothing else going on.

Originally Posted by UMP25

You also cannot define its popularity by citing participation among the nation's high schoolers, because, among other reasons, football, for example, has a bigger roster and necessarily requires more participants in order to function. Also, baseball is not considered a big "money sport" for one main reason: baseball parks at high schools and colleges lack the ability to draw fans in the area of 30,000 to 100,000, which is something football can do. Even soccer and basketball can draw more fans. So, financial logistics will determine the apparent "popularity" to which you allude.

When you compare attendance and the viewing public, baseball is behind the NFL and the NBA. If the New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox, Chicago Cubs or maybe even the LA Dodgers are not playing in the post season, the ratings fall drastically. In Colorado there were hardly anyone attending those games about a month ago until they were seriously in the playoff run. If the Red Sox do not win the American League Crown, I can tell you the ratings will fall off big time.

And yes it does matter what kids in this country think because those are who is going to watch and be fans generations from now. When I was a kid we played pick up whiffle ball games and we were always outside playing. I still see kids playing basketball on the playground. And if you want to talk about what kids do much more than play outside, and then you need to start talking about video games. One of the most popular video games is Madden Football. I bet you cannot even tell me what is the equivalent for Major League Baseball which tries to promote the sport? Basketball has become so popular during the summer, I do not see the same level of baseball teams as I do during the summer during these basketball leagues.

Look the guys in their 30s and 40s and above are still watching a lot of baseball because we grew up with that sport. Baseball was my favorite sport as a kid and I played it the longest. When I tried out for my HS baseball teams, there were 40 or 50 kids trying to make it. There was a cut to pick the top 20-25 players. Now I barely see kids at the HS level playing the sport and to get a team with 15 players is an accomplishment for even the big schools. My HS only had about 600 students when I graduated. The schools I am working and seeing on a regular basis hare 1500 to 2500 in many cases. You are telling me they cannot find another 10 kids to fill the varsity squad? I seem 20 kids at summer basketball games that those same HS.

Peace

[UMP25]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Baseball is no longer "America's pastime" Baseball is strictly a Regional sport

Hardly. That's a ridiculous assertion, and if it were true, the same could be said about other sports that play their games every day or almost every day of the week.

One thing most people are forgetting is that when baseball's ratings were highest, it was during the days when we didn't have hundreds of channels to now watch. All sports, baseball among them, now suffer from perceived lack of interest and viewer decline. The same can be said about many good prime time television shows. With so many choices for viewers to make, simple numbers alone would tell anyone that ratings just aren't gonna be that high anymore.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=UMP25]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Hardly. That's a ridiculous assertion,

How is that rediculous

Example: Who was watching the Rockies / D-backs series unless you live in Arizona or Colorado however,

The Pats vs. the Cowboys generated a National audience.

A better example: In the regular season Yanks vs. Mets generate a large audience in NY but outside of NY do you think people care about Mets vs. Yanks

That's the difference. Unless one of your baseball teams is in the playoffs the majority of the country couldn't care less.

Regardless of what you think Baseball IS a Regional Sport not a National Sport.

Pete Booth

[JJ]

I wonder how much the playing "late night" hours has impacted the viewing and ratings. I also wonder (wish...pray, actually) that MLB will someday go back to daytime games for at least some of these playoff games. If they want to develop a future audience and fans, they need to cater to the kids who WANT to watch these games but whose responsible parents won't let them stay up to do so.

JJ

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

How is that rediculous

Example: Who was watching the Rockies / D-backs series unless you live in Arizona or Colorado however,

And it does not help that the series ended around 2:00 am (Eastern) on a Monday night. Even the biggest fan on the eastern side of the country probably did not stay up to watch that series.

The NFL does a much better job marketing their sport and allowing the average public to watch their sport. The NFL Championship game is a national event and holiday.

You can talk about attendance all you want to, but there are college stadiums that fill a stadium with 100,000 people and their team is sorry (Michigan was 0-2 and they filled their stadium every week and I was there during the Oregon game). The Atlanta Braves in their most successful period almost never sold out their stadium when they made the playoffs year in and year out.

Baseball does not get the best athletes anymore from this country and the average public is not paying attention at the most interesting time of the season (or what is supposed to be). When I have more people watching a youth sport that has no news coverage compared to a sport that is in the paper or covered in the media, there is a problem. Ump25, you and I live in an area where a few years ago the Gatorade Player of the Year in Baseball came from (Neuqua Valley Pitcher, who I cannot even think of his name right now) and I have not seen or heard anything about him since he entered the Minors but when I talked to his coach last season). Illinois Mr. Basketball 2007 was featured on an ESPN SportsCenter Highlight during Midnight Madness (practice) this past weekend. And you wonder why kids are not playing baseball?

Peace

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by JJ

I wonder how much the playing "late night" hours has impacted the viewing and ratings. I also wonder (wish...pray, actually) that MLB will someday go back to daytime games for at least some of these playoff games. If they want to develop a future audience and fans, they need to cater to the kids who WANT to watch these games but whose responsible parents won't let them stay up to do so.

JJ

There are not enough viewers in the daytime, certainly not enough in the prime demographic that sports sponsors want, 25-50 year old men.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

How is that rediculous

Example: Who was watching the Rockies / D-backs series unless you live in Arizona or Colorado however,

The Pats vs. the Cowboys generated a National audience.

Thank you for proving my point. I'll reiterate: the NFL doesn't play games 7 days a week to oversaturate TV.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

A better example: In the regular season Yanks vs. Mets generate a large audience in NY but outside of NY do you think people care about Mets vs. Yanks

Actually, that's a worse example that further proves my point.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by JJ

I wonder how much the playing "late night" hours has impacted the viewing and ratings. I also wonder (wish...pray, actually) that MLB will someday go back to daytime games for at least some of these playoff games. If they want to develop a future audience and fans, they need to cater to the kids who WANT to watch these games but whose responsible parents won't let them stay up to do so.

JJ

I agree, John, that the late starts probably have a big impact upon viewership, and I also believe they should go for daytime starts. Remember when World Series games on weekends started in the afternoon?

What JR doesn't seem to understand, though, is how the problem of time zones and prime time viewing comes into play when games are shown weekday evenings. Regardless of the start time, half the country is bound to be upset about the start time.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The NFL does a much better job marketing their sport and allowing the average public to watch their sport. The NFL Championship game is a national event and holiday.

Play the Super Bowl as a 7-game event and it no longer WILL be a national event or holiday. You're comparing apples and oranges again.

You can talk about attendance all you want to, but there are college stadiums that fill a stadium with 100,000 people and their team is sorry (Michigan was 0-2 and they filled their stadium every week and I was there during the Oregon game).

Does Michigan play 162 games each season? Do they play almost every day of the week? No. If they did, would they draw 100,000 each game? Heck no!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

How is that rediculous

Not to be grammar police or anything, because mine be/are atrocious at times, but there is no such word as "rediculous." It is actually "ridiculous." Just thought you might like to know how ridiculous it looks.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Example: Who was watching the Rockies / D-backs series unless you live in Arizona or Colorado

I live in San Diego. I am a Padres fan. Have been all my life. Don't really care much for the Rockies. However, I watched the entire series, rooted hard for the Rockies (because I detest the D-Backs), and thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing, especially the sweep and celebration last night.

I love baseball. I think many people around the country enjoy watching the playoffs, regardless of whether or not "their" team is playing.

Here in California, we get a mix of people from all over the country. It is one giant melting pot. The bars here were full of Rockies and Diamondbacks fans, probably people from those areas. We do get a lot of Zonies here year-round.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Regardless of what you think Baseball IS a Regional Sport not a National Sport.

Again, not exactly true. I know of many, many fans of certain teams who live in parts of the country where there are no teams. For example, there are many Cubs and Cardinals fans living in the mid-west who live hundreds of miles from any professional baseball. That doesn't change the fact that baseball has always been America's Pastime. Baseball continues to be a national sport, as well as a national treasure.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

A better example: In the regular season Yanks vs. Mets generate a large audience in NY but outside of NY do you think people care about Mets vs. Yanks

Yes. Many people I know absolutely love it when there is a subway series. Baseball fans are that way. If a match-up is a particularly interesting one, a true baseball fan will follow it as if it were his own home team playing. I believe you are wrong to assume that people outside of any given market are apathetic when it comes to good baseball.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by UMP25

I agree, John, that the late starts probably have a big impact upon viewership, and I also believe they should go for daytime starts. Remember when World Series games on weekends started in the afternoon?

What JR doesn't seem to understand, though, is how the problem of time zones and prime time viewing comes into play when games are shown weekday evenings. Regardless of the start time, half the country is bound to be upset about the start time.

You may be able to start games in the daytime on the west coast, but you can't in the east becasue you cannot get enough viewers across the country to support the necessary advertising rates.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Play the Super Bowl as a 7-game event and it no longer WILL be a national event or holiday. You're comparing apples and oranges again.

MLB could not beat out a regular season football game with two teams that are in "small markets" on a prime time stage. This is the post season; I would expect a so-called "major" sport to beat out any regular season game during their post season. And this was a game that determines who is going to the World Series, not just a Divisional Series and with teams that just barely made the playoffs. The NBA Playoffs run during the basketball season and I do not think they consistently get beat by national MLB coverage during the same time in ratings. And their ratings are not that good either during the highest stage.

Originally Posted by UMP25

Does Michigan play 162 games each season? Do they play almost every day of the week? No. If they did, would they draw 100,000 each game? Heck no!

Michigan is the example I used. I could have talked about any number of programs across the country and they fill their stadiums even when their teams are horrible.

Also the fact you keep talking about 162 games also makes my point. The season is too long. And MLB does not market their players very well at all. NFL Players wear helmets and the average fan would know who many of their top players are without their helmets. I cannot name 5 guys that played in the game last night that I knew anything about. Even last year there were several players that were top players in MLB and the ratings were terrible.

The bottom line is MLB is no longer the America's Past time. Kids do not play it as a playground game anymore (they do not even play video games with the MLB logo without making the game freakishly arcade-like and totally unrealistic). When they do play it is so organized I wonder if the kids are actually having any fun. And the major pro league does not even let the public know who their best players are and I am sure the scandals do not help either. When I was a kid I knew all the top players and there as not the 24 ESPN and Sports cycles the way there is today.

Just admit this sport is not what it was and likely will never be. The next thing you will tell me is Hockey is still relevant.

Peace