Both. Winters should be held to a higher accountability imo. Personally as well as professionally.

From one of Garth's responses

Perhaps someone can repost the link to this infamous episode as IMO it is the crux of the discussion.

During the exchange for the most part all you heard is the word F**k coming from both Earl and Haller.

Did Earl go to MLB and accuse Haller of "baiting him" or using profanity - NO. It was the accepted practice back then.

We do not know what evidence MLB has and probably will never know.

The race card was used and we all know how powerful that is whether right / wrong.

Is MLB "sending a message" to the umpires - Probably. Is Winters the "sacrificial lamb" - Do not know.

Also, this incident is more prevelant in the Umpires discussion Forums then in the "court of public opinion" Unless an official is suspended for Gambling charges, drug abuse, alcoholism or something along those lines it is not newsworhty. Yes it was on ESPN for maybe a couple of days but it is now dropped.

The mistake made by Winters was that he knew well in advance that Bradley is a "time bomb" and anything derragatory said to him would send off armagedon.

Also, if there was no racial comments said then IMO the First base coach should be suspended as well. As mentioned we all know the power of accusing someone of racism and intially the 1B coach accused Winters of that. Then he changed his tune, therefore, he should also be suspended.

Winters career might well be over. In addition we do not know if MLB wanted to get "get rid of some umpires" and was looking for any valid reason to do so.

Pete Booth

I have always believed that we as sports officials must be held to standards higher than that of the players over whom we reign, for we are the ones entrusted to guard the very integrity of the game. Managers cheat; coaches cheat; players cheat. They all do unseemly things. Umpires must not ever do any of these. If we do, then the game's integrity is lost.

However, what Winters did does not deserve his firing, despite what that nutjob jimpiano says.

Either you do not read with comprehension or you do not write what you mean.

You wrote: "Winters was not accused of racism, he was found guilty of being profane and abusive," to which I correctly replied that he was indeed accused of a making a racial statement, falsely as it turned out.

MLB did not make the accusations. MLB adjudged the accusations. Winters was found to not have made a racial comment. He was found guilty of making a "profane" comment to a player, which, up to now, has not been grounds for suspension.

So, it appears, as I stated early on, it would seem the rules have changed.

Here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or1_1Cktdvs

Included you'll hear Haller tell Weaver: "You're full of sh!t", "Phuck you" and "You ain't no phuckin' good, Earl."

Today, Haller would suspended for the rest of the season.

Haller also told him he would be in the Hall of Fame "for what, *ucking up World Series, Earl?"

Such a personal attack today would probably get an umpire hung! :rolleyes:

From where are you getting any of this? Why should this be anything more than a routine suspension? I can't see MLB turning this into any more than it already is. Mike Winters has a previously unblemished career and is an outstanding umpire. I can't really see MLB wanting to "get rid" of one of their finer officials.

I agree, and hope we're both right.

However, I do believe this puts a future crew chief position for Mike out of the question, effectively giving him a career long punishment and fine.

I still don't see the similarity between using a word in a conversation (which your example is, not a personal attack), and using the word in a personal description of someone. Doesn't anyone understand that name-calling is totally different from just using a bad word in a sentence?

"You're horsesh*t" and "you're a piece of horsesh*t" are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

I'm sure Weaver thought what Haller said was funny as hell. I thought it was when I first heard it years ago. I don't recall Haller calling Weaver a "*ucking piece of sh!t" or I would have remembered it.

There is also a thing called context. Even if Haller had called Weaver a name, Weaver probably would have just called Haller a name back. You don't call a player with a reputation as an explosive hothead a name to which he is certainly going to react violently.

You don't think "You ain't no phuckin' good" is personal? I think if Winters had said that to him, Bradley would have gone off just as he did.

You'd be wrong to think that. Weave hated Haller and said so several times. He complained to the league numerous time, both trying to get Haller transfrered and fired.

Now you want umpires to be responsible for the actions of the players. Even if they act the part, players aren't babies. They need to be held accountable for their own actions. Being an explosive hothead is no reason to be allowed to be an explosive hothead, even for phuckin piece of sh!t like Bradley.

Garth, there is a big difference between saying "you're no (whatever) good" and "you're a (whatever) piece of (whatever).

A coach can tell me I'm no f-ing good and all he will get is ejected.

The same coach calls me a f-ing piece of sh!t is likely to see me sometime later and be spitting out chiclets.

I guess I'm just a piece of sh!t like Bradley, because I probably would have wanted to punch Winters too if he had called me that.

From my response above

I was simply expressing an opinion based upon the fact that Winters is suspended. At this point all we know is that Winters is done for the season and playoffs.

How can you call this a routine suspension when an umpire is suspended for not only the remainder of the season but playoffs as well.

A "routine suspension" is a game or 2 not the rest of the season and playoffs.

Winters suspension is more than simply routine which prompted my comment. Also, let's get real here. Competition for MLB umpires jobs is very competetive so what are the odds on Winters getting a crew chief position and also working next years playoffs?

Pete Booth

I doubt that you are that similar to Bradley, but we certainly look at some things differently.

Both of the statements would get the same result from me, an ejection. I put violent replies to verbal attacks aside a long time ago.

Like I have previously posted, I have been suspended for much longer for much less. I don't think this suspension is out of line. If they had just suspended him for the remaining few games of the season, what good would that have done? That would be like a slap on the wrist.

I don't see any reason why Winters won't be in the playoffs next year. As for crew chief, I don't know.

I don't wanna grow up, I'm a Toys 'R' Us kid.;)

I was under the impression that Winters was going to receive Froemming's CC position. You may be right. If so, that's a shame.

Back in 1998, Sam Holbrook ejected Mark McGwire during his run on the home run record. In 1999, Holbrook was repaid by having his resignation be one of the ones accepted. It took him a while to get back his job.

In my world, people who choose to respond to verbal taunts with physical violence go to jail for assault. (And no, FED does not have a penalty for "verbal assault." ;))

Well then, it's a good thing I was so f*cking good at my job that nobody ever called me anything (at least to my face), so that theory never got tested.

Several posters have said that Meachem initially alledged racial remarks, and then later softened his stance, and have characterized this as lying.

Does anyone have a link which quotes Meachem claiming that racial remarks were made? The closest that I am aware of is a report in the San Diego Union-Tribune. http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...s24padres.html
"Asked whether what Winters said had racial overtones, Meacham, who, like Bradley, is black, replied, “It smacked of that tone.”

I have trouble seeing this as anything other than Meachem expressing an impression, and it hardly qualifies as "lying." In fact his impression might be accurate; only those who were there are even entitled to have an opinion on the tone of the "discussion." I can see, however, ESPN or others reporting this as a racial allegation, and then later "backing off" their reporting.

Anybody know of a more definitive quote?

1. I would disagree. That statment by Meacham, to me, is that what Winter's said smacked of racial overtones. Compared to what he later said when he quoted what was said, that was a lie.

2. Unfortunately, often when ESPN and FOX update an ongoing story on their website. (indidated by the tag they put under the blyline, e.g. "updated 3 hours ago") they give the updated story the same URL as the original, thus the original is not saved to their site.

They were two of the outlets that reported that Meacham gave two references to race, the first being that Winters' comments were racial, the second being that Winter's comment could be taken as racial. Only after MLB got involved did both FOX and ESPN report that Meacham's story changed again so that there was no reference to race and instead he began giving the exact quote.

Additionally, the quote was reported on ESPN's Sports Center and Around The Horn.

Given what Winters actually said, I don't believe that a reasonable person would conclude that "it smacked of that tone." More plausibly, Meacham saw an opportunity to mislead the press by giving the impression that Winters had used racist language, when in fact he had not.

Deliberately deceiving others who deserve the truth is a lie in anyone's book. This might not be "beyond a reasonable doubt," but I suppose that each of us is entitled to his own impression of Meacham.

Winters uttered considerably more words than just "FPOS." I don't think any of us know what those words were or the tone.
Also, "smacking of a racial tone" is not "racist language." Tone refers to that which isn't explicitly said.

So you're guessing. I repeat: given what he said, it's unreasonable to assert what Meacham did.

I agree with the latter, but the former doesn't follow. I believe racist language includes language "smacking of a racial tone."

Time for this thread to be locked. It's off-topic and has gone beyond the three page maximum.

As usual. :rolleyes:

<ol>1. I have not heard tell of the demise of the moderator, nor his placing you in charge of the locking of the threads at this time.:rolleyes:

2. The thread is very "on-topic." I just read through the posts and they are all still dealing with the suspension of Mike Winters, which has many facets, many new developments, and has not yet run its course.

3. The three page maximum only applies to your threads;) :) :D :p <ol>

1) How is it off topic? It deals with how an umpire should (or shouldn't) act, how MLB is different from amateur ball and what an appropriate penalty is.

2) What "three page maximum?"

I do agree that it's getting a bit repetitive, though.

My God, we agree!

Besides, I haven't posted and asked the question........:confused:

Except that you ask it at the end of EVERY SINGLE POST! :)

That's cause......I CAN'T FIND THE DANG THINGS!!!

No, there was a newspaper quote that you concluded was an accusation of racism. What Meacham told MLB is not known, except to MLB.

No umpire has ever been suspended from MLB for making a profane statement? If so, then Winters must have broken new ground in what he said and in the manner he delivered it.

Since their were 4 parties to the incident and the only one punished was the umpire what is a reasonable person to conclude?

Try this: http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

I don't know if you are unable to read or just being purposefully dense.

1. The racial accusation was made by Meacham, not MLB.

2. MLB made no accusations, they considered those made by others.

3. MLB punished Winters for making a profane statement, not for making a racial statement.

4. Most likely, all of the punishments are either not being made public or have not been completed at this point.

5. Winters was wrong by today's standards and was punished. I have never argued otherwise.

6. Meacham is a lying rat bast@rd who, most likely will get away with being a lying rat bast@rd.

7. Bradley is, well...no sense discussing that phucking piece of sh!t again.

8. Time for you to go back on the ignore list.

9. I'm done with this thread.

Top Nine List?
 

Nine?????? You stopped at nine???? You couldn't have came up with just ONE MORE?????:)

I'm still amazed by how long it took Garth to put jimpiano on his ignore list. Hell, I did that months ago!

Who's jimpiano? :eek:

Don't blame SD Steve for hyping Khalil - but consider

AVG .291 | HR 24 | RBI 99 | OBP .359 | SLG .479

Troy Tulowitzki.. a rookie.