8-4-2 is indeed a stretch. The yelling of balk was intended to cause the pitcher to balk, not prevent a play on the runner.

Steve,

Is intent relevant? You seem to suggest that if there was no intent to prevent R1 from being put out, then 8-4-2g isn't applicable. I'm not getting that argument.

In any case, wouldn't this be a HTBT situation? None of us has any idea if the pitchers change of delivery influenced the catcher's probability of retiring R1 at second.

I didn't mean to say there was or wasn't intent. The rule that makes it illegal to yell "time" or any other phrase or command addresses the intent to cause a pitcher to balk. I just don't think that just yelling "balk" alone would necessarily "prevent" R1 from being put out. Yes, you would have to be there to judge what effect the yelling of "balk" actually had on the play.

If I hear someone yell "balk" from the dugout, I'm killing the ball and ejecting someone if I know who did it, or warning said dugout if I don't. I no wise will bases be run, or plays made on anyone. I'm sending the runner back to 1st in any case.

It's definitely a HTBT, Steve, but I hear offensive players and their coaches yell "balk" a lot when they see a questionable move by F1, and I let it go. Now, if I felt it inticed the pitcher to committ a balk then I would eject whomever hollered it out.


Tim.

Tim, I nip that yelling "balk" crap off right away. I inform them that the umpires will do all the calling of balks and that we don't appreciate any help with it. It has never failed to stop the yelling of "balk."

Then you have never called ball in the South, Sup. Managers sit up at nights thinking of ways to bend the rules.

E.g. East Cobb-Atlanta coach, high powered program, multi-million $$$ private fields, has his players running in the outfield warning track, between innings, during the inning when there is "Time". On dead balls. Teh during play.

You call him on this practice, then when the opposing coach sends his F1 to the bullpen with practice F2 from the dugout while the ball is live............:eek:

Intent is irrelevant, probable cause and cause is.

Any umpire that would allow this isn't worth the price of their shoelaces.


Tim.

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E.g. East Cobb-Atlanta coach, high powered program, multi-million $$$ private fields, has his players running in the outfield warning track, between innings, during the inning when there is "Time". On dead balls. Then he has them run when they are on O. Then while the ball is live, he screams bloody murder when the opposing team runns from the dugout to the warmup pen, F1/F2..
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Bold statement, Bigg, now justify the difference in calling his players for running the track in a dead ball, when there is a T-Out, and not calling down the opposing players who enter the field when the ball is live. :confused:

"It's part of baseball, while running in the outfield during a game is not. If you want to complain to the state I'll give you some extra time to do so." (and, no, I don't recommend those exact words).

I agree with Tim -- the coach needs to be dealt with and I can't believe "all" umpires let him get away with it.

Originally Posted by fitump56
[
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by fitump56

E.g. East Cobb-Atlanta coach, high powered program, multi-million $$$ private fields, has his players running in the outfield warning track, between innings, during the inning when there is "Time". On dead balls. Then he has them run when they are on O. Then while the ball is live, he screams bloody murder when the opposing team runns from the dugout to the warmup pen, F1/F2..
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Bold statement, BiggUmp56, now justify the difference in calling his players for running the track in a dead ball, when there is a T-Out, and not calling down the opposing players who enter the field when the ball is live. :confused:

Part of baseball? By whose book? It's been part of this coach's baseball for as long as I can remember. It is certainly potentially less intrusive to run the track on a dead ball than prancing up and down foul territory when the ball is live.

But who do you toss when you don't know who yelled it. Have fun with that one...I suppose when in doubt, you can dump the head coach...but it's nearing rabbit ears a little bit if you start dumping guys and not knowing exactly who's saying what...

If you don't know who said it, issue a warning that if anyone repeats this offense that you will just pick someone and run them. I've never had anyone test this. It is a very effective deterent, because nobody wants to be responsible for getting a manager or player ejected for something they did.

If this sounds a bit harsh, I didn't invent this technique. I learned it from some very good umpires.

A technique I used once when the dugout was going nuts about my partners call at second and wouldn't shut up:

I pulled the head coach aside and took out the lineup. As I held the lineup where he could see it, I began circling the number 4 batter as I said, "if you can't get control of your dugout, I'm gonna have to just pick someone to go."

He got the message.

Idiots are easily impressed. With real managers, you start that kind of bush league threats, then don't be surprised as PU when F2 just quite doesn't get his mitt up high enough to catch that 90mpher "erroneously" aimed at your head.

What a bunch of Hollywood junk you are preaching here. Young umpires who read this think that you actually act out this "I always have a witty, controlling, smartism" that stumps managers and players into reverence for you.

"Gosh, the PU, he was reely good, he put me in my place, he'll teach us a thing or two. Everyone, get up and Yell "Go Blue"; no telling what Mr. Einstein might do next!"

Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 3,607

Yeah, you're an expert alright. Spokane is a haven for baseball. :rolleyes: