unsportsmanlike ?
 

hi,
R1, 0 outs.
somebody from the dugout yelled "balk", and the pitcher slowed his motion to the plate down but still pitched. R1 was stealing on the pitch and made it easily in to 2nd. the catcher did not even try to throw down to 2nd. the umpire went to the dugout and said that this is unsportsmanlike but left R1 on 2nd. was that the proper ruling or could he send R1 back to his TOP base ?

I got pounded for part what I am about to say when it was in regards to an MLB game. However, I think it may be true for you sitch.

If the ump took the time to declare the act unsportsmanlike, the offense should have a penalty enforced. This looks like a warning. It appears that the ump thought that it had an effect on the outcome of the play. You can't let that play stand, if the act effected the outcome. At the very least, send the runner back. It also has a ring of verbal INT by a member of the offensive team. If that were the case, you are within your rights (within the rules) to delcare R1 out.

I'm not sure that the out for INT would have been the proper ruling, however. I do think that R1 should have been sent back to 1B, because you can't have a runner advance on INT.

4.06
(a) No manager, player, substitute, coach, trainer or batboy shall at any time, whether from the bench, the coach’s box or on the playing field, or elsewhere --
(1) Incite, or try to incite, by word or sign a demonstration by spectators;
(2) Use language which will in any manner refer to or reflect upon opposing players, an umpire, or any spectator;
(3) Call “Time,” or employ any other word or phrase or commit any act while the ball is alive and in play for the obvious purpose of trying to make the pitcher commit a balk.(4) Make intentional contact with the umpire in any manner.
(b) No fielder shall take a position in the batter’s line of vision, and with deliberate unsportsmanlike intent, act in a manner to distract the batter.
PENALTY: The offender shall be removed from the game and shall leave the playing field, and, if a balk is made, it shall be nullified.

Ejection of the verbal interferer and R1 out.

By what rule do we call R1 out?


Tim.

Verbal interference is not applicable to OBR. Interference may not be a verbal act by itself.

J/R: "It is not interference if the intent to interfere is soley verbal."

This is what I got thrown under the bus for. I wasn't sure what rule set was being used, so I stated the verbal INT on the assumption that it may have been a modified OBR or some another rule set. By no means did I mean to imply that under OBR should the verbal INT be called. That's also why I stated that I didn't think it would have been the correct call.

I am just making an observation. I did not read where the rule set was clarified. Verbal Interference is illegal at the NF level. It is possible that OBR was not being used. Just throwing this out there.

Peace

Unless otherwise stated, I normally default to OBR, since after the HS season, it is the most commonly used rules base. The fact that jicecone quoted Rule 4.06 in his reply led me further in that direction.

Bruno, which rules set was being used?:confused:

Even if the game had been played under FED rules it's quite a stretch to call verbal interference because someone from the dugout yells "balk."


Tim.

I understand that. The reality is there are places that use NF rules for games with kids at HS age and younger. I know if people in my state are working any Junior High ball, it is not out of the question they would be using only NF rules.

Peace

Let me qualify my next statement. I have not picked up a NF rulebook in well over a month.

If I am not mistaken, you can eject a player or coach for yelling "balk" or any other language used to try to induce a balk.

Now if I am wrong, then you can correct me. I have no idea right now where my books are and I am not looking for them. But this is why I asked what level this was.

Peace

I don't think anyone here was questioning whether a player or coach can and should be ejected for yelling "balk." It was the part about calling the runner out which was in question. In OBR, there is no question whatsoever...no out called.

The FED rule (3-3-1o) gives the penalty for calling "Time" or using any command or committing any act for the pupose of causing a balk. It is ejection only, unless it is committed by a runner prior to scoring, where then he is called out.

A baserunner is not called out for the action of a coach or bench player, only if he is the one that was unsportsmanlike.

You are correct - I will not spell out each rule, but (NFHS)...

2-21-1 states that INT can be both physical and verbal
3-3-1o states that a anyone associated with the team (player, coach, etc) shall not yell "time" or "balk" to cause a balk - Penalty is EJ of offender
5-1-2d states that this is a DDB situation
8-4-2g states that a runner is out when "his being put out is prevented by an illegal act by anyone connected with the team" - siting 2-21-1, 3-2-2 & 3

8-4-2 might be a pretty good stretch - it would have to be a very close play at 2B to think R1 would have been retired if not for the slowed arm motion of the pitcher. - that's pushing it (even though I stated it originally, as an option).

You do have every right to EJ somebody for the INT - and send R1 back to 1B (b/c you can't have someone advance on a play involving INT)

8-4-2 is indeed a stretch. The yelling of balk was intended to cause the pitcher to balk, not prevent a play on the runner.

Steve,

Is intent relevant? You seem to suggest that if there was no intent to prevent R1 from being put out, then 8-4-2g isn't applicable. I'm not getting that argument.

In any case, wouldn't this be a HTBT situation? None of us has any idea if the pitchers change of delivery influenced the catcher's probability of retiring R1 at second.

I didn't mean to say there was or wasn't intent. The rule that makes it illegal to yell "time" or any other phrase or command addresses the intent to cause a pitcher to balk. I just don't think that just yelling "balk" alone would necessarily "prevent" R1 from being put out. Yes, you would have to be there to judge what effect the yelling of "balk" actually had on the play.

If I hear someone yell "balk" from the dugout, I'm killing the ball and ejecting someone if I know who did it, or warning said dugout if I don't. I no wise will bases be run, or plays made on anyone. I'm sending the runner back to 1st in any case.

It's definitely a HTBT, Steve, but I hear offensive players and their coaches yell "balk" a lot when they see a questionable move by F1, and I let it go. Now, if I felt it inticed the pitcher to committ a balk then I would eject whomever hollered it out.


Tim.

Tim, I nip that yelling "balk" crap off right away. I inform them that the umpires will do all the calling of balks and that we don't appreciate any help with it. It has never failed to stop the yelling of "balk."

Then you have never called ball in the South, Sup. Managers sit up at nights thinking of ways to bend the rules.

E.g. East Cobb-Atlanta coach, high powered program, multi-million $$$ private fields, has his players running in the outfield warning track, between innings, during the inning when there is "Time". On dead balls. Teh during play.

You call him on this practice, then when the opposing coach sends his F1 to the bullpen with practice F2 from the dugout while the ball is live............:eek:

Intent is irrelevant, probable cause and cause is.

Any umpire that would allow this isn't worth the price of their shoelaces.


Tim.

[
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E.g. East Cobb-Atlanta coach, high powered program, multi-million $$$ private fields, has his players running in the outfield warning track, between innings, during the inning when there is "Time". On dead balls. Then he has them run when they are on O. Then while the ball is live, he screams bloody murder when the opposing team runns from the dugout to the warmup pen, F1/F2..
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Bold statement, Bigg, now justify the difference in calling his players for running the track in a dead ball, when there is a T-Out, and not calling down the opposing players who enter the field when the ball is live. :confused:

"It's part of baseball, while running in the outfield during a game is not. If you want to complain to the state I'll give you some extra time to do so." (and, no, I don't recommend those exact words).

I agree with Tim -- the coach needs to be dealt with and I can't believe "all" umpires let him get away with it.

Originally Posted by fitump56
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E.g. East Cobb-Atlanta coach, high powered program, multi-million $$$ private fields, has his players running in the outfield warning track, between innings, during the inning when there is "Time". On dead balls. Then he has them run when they are on O. Then while the ball is live, he screams bloody murder when the opposing team runns from the dugout to the warmup pen, F1/F2..
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Bold statement, BiggUmp56, now justify the difference in calling his players for running the track in a dead ball, when there is a T-Out, and not calling down the opposing players who enter the field when the ball is live. :confused:

Part of baseball? By whose book? It's been part of this coach's baseball for as long as I can remember. It is certainly potentially less intrusive to run the track on a dead ball than prancing up and down foul territory when the ball is live.

But who do you toss when you don't know who yelled it. Have fun with that one...I suppose when in doubt, you can dump the head coach...but it's nearing rabbit ears a little bit if you start dumping guys and not knowing exactly who's saying what...

If you don't know who said it, issue a warning that if anyone repeats this offense that you will just pick someone and run them. I've never had anyone test this. It is a very effective deterent, because nobody wants to be responsible for getting a manager or player ejected for something they did.

If this sounds a bit harsh, I didn't invent this technique. I learned it from some very good umpires.

A technique I used once when the dugout was going nuts about my partners call at second and wouldn't shut up:

I pulled the head coach aside and took out the lineup. As I held the lineup where he could see it, I began circling the number 4 batter as I said, "if you can't get control of your dugout, I'm gonna have to just pick someone to go."

He got the message.

Idiots are easily impressed. With real managers, you start that kind of bush league threats, then don't be surprised as PU when F2 just quite doesn't get his mitt up high enough to catch that 90mpher "erroneously" aimed at your head.

What a bunch of Hollywood junk you are preaching here. Young umpires who read this think that you actually act out this "I always have a witty, controlling, smartism" that stumps managers and players into reverence for you.

"Gosh, the PU, he was reely good, he put me in my place, he'll teach us a thing or two. Everyone, get up and Yell "Go Blue"; no telling what Mr. Einstein might do next!"

Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 3,607

Yeah, you're an expert alright. Spokane is a haven for baseball. :rolleyes:

As with all game management techniques, Garth's suggestion won't work for everyone, or for anyone everytime. It can be productively used, however. I have used a similar technique successfully.

I'm open to other (better?) suggestions.

(Assuming you're talking about the East Cobb AAU (private) program, and not some high school team:)

Here in South Carolina my association umpires a lot of AAU (and the like) tournaments during the Summer and Fall. (And we do have a lot of tournaments...for instance, Charleston has three NCAA Division 1 schools, one of which has 2 home fields...so its a great town to have a tournament).

Anyways, I can say with very high confidence that no head coach of any visiting (out-of-state) program has been ejected more often and more consistently by members of my association than the East Cobb head coach...for pulling **** like this.

Frankly, we have 10-15 Division 1 college umpires in our association that umpire these fall tournaments...and they (we) won't put up with that ****.

I, personally, have never tossed him...he's been quiet the three times I've had him...so as of right now I have no problems with him.

I don't know how many total times he's been tossed by us...However, I've heard the multiple war stories from fellow association members...and, thus, I'm always prepared to shut him down immediately should anything start up.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by fitump56

E.g. East Cobb-Atlanta coach, high powered program, multi-million $$$ private fields, has his players running in the outfield warning track, between innings, during the inning when there is "Time". On dead balls. Teh during play.
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Yep, Gerry Baldwin and his troops to be specific. I was referring to his anitcs in particular.

I tossed Gerry twice in one DH. He started on me re: a balk call I "missed" from the game before. I was PU for this game and I warned him I let him go to finish but "Nope" he had to push the point. He is roundly considered psychotic on the field. So I sent him to cook hotdogs, come Game Two, deja vu, I tossed him as he started the same crying song as soon as he left the dugout. :p

Tell them Congrats, toss him for fitump56!

Only way, don't give him an inch, not a millimeter. His umps in EC are hand picked to take his crap and let him essentially cheat. To keep umps, he has to pay them $15 or more per game over the going rate.:rolleyes:

Off field, Gerry is OK and he is super sharp on the diamond. But he and 2 or 3 dozen more come from that EC/Atlanta Southern genre that umps are made to be hard-worked, humiliated, and intimidated.