Batting out of order
 

Today's Mariner-Blue Jay game: Bottom of second inning. Due up for Jays -- Hill, Overbay, Zaun. Overbay leads off instead of Hill and flies out. (One out) Hill then bats and doubles. Mariners now appeal improper batter.
According to the reports I have read, umpires called Hill out (two outs), and Zaun then came up to bat and struck out. (Three outs)

The Associated Press report erroneously claims that Overbay then batted ahead of Hill for the remainder of the game. Not true.

My interpretation of the "batting-out-of-order" rule (6.07): Overbay was an improper batter. When a pitch was thrown to Hill, Overbay's at bat was legalized and the next proper batter was Zaun. So now Hill is the improper batter. When the Mariners timely appealed Hill's improper at bat, the umpire should have called the "proper batter", i.e. Zaun, out. The next batter should have been McDonald, who followed Zaun in the lineup.

Why is this rule so confusing to umpires?

Why is this rule so confusing to umpires?

I thought maybe these umps were fresh from Fed or ASA, which handle BOO differently. Except that in the case you describe, the ruling would be the same: Overbay made legal on the pitch to Hill, Zaun thus the proper batter. On the appeal, Zaun out, Hill taken off base, and McDonald the next batter.

If the umps actually ruled the way you say they did, it's an inexcusable lack of knowledge of the rule.

I don't find the umpires' mistake as surprising as the fact that the batters batted out of order.

Umpires make mistakes all the time - even on applications. (Remember the 1st and 3rd, fly ball, appeal play, that caused the umpires to put a run back up on the board later in the game?)

Yet, major league players, batting out of order, is much more rare.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I was watching the game and yes the umpires ruled it exactly like the original post says. I was very surprised. When the umpires were discussing it, the Blue Jays announcers were saying that Hill would be ruled out and Zaun would bat. The umpires screw the call and make the announcers seem like they know the rule.

BTW, it was the second time in 18 years that the Blue Jays committed that mistake (BOO). It happened to me a few weeks ago for the first time im my five years of umpiring experience.

How can you get to the Major Leagues and not know how to handle BOO? And four guys unable to get a BOO call right?

Because talent and rules knowledge aren't what gets you to MLB in thei first place.

Was this an error by the umpires, or by the official scorer and the Blue Jays?

The MLB Gameday report for the bottom of the second has this reported as a ground out by Hill to the catcher. Of course, it should have been recorded as a putout of Zaun by the catcher.

The next batter, as we all know, should be McDonald. Would the umpires tell Toronto who to send to the plate next, or do they remain silent to the fact that Toronto is still BOO?

Would the umpires tell Toronto who to send to the plate next?

If they called Hill out instead of Zaun, I'm not sure I'd trust their judgment as to the proper batter.

There's a question for you. The umpires erroneously inform the offense that Abel is the proper batter, and then the defense appeals after Abel hits a home run.

"Another nice mess."

The home plate umpire pointed to Hill and gave the out signaled. They just goofed. Nothing else.

An interesting question here is whether the official scoring of the game will be changed to reflect that Zaun actually made two outs in a 1-2-3 inning. I wonder if that is a first in MLB. I know it is not a first in organized sports.

This past season, my daughter struck out in a softball game. As she was walking back to the bench, her teammates told her it was only two strikes, not three. She returned to the plate and the next pitch was a strike. She turned again to go to the bench and the umpire asked where she was going. When she explained, the umpires conferred and called her out for batting out of order. Their rationale: her first at bat resulted in a strike out. When she returned for one more pitch, she was batting out of order and therefore was out again. The umpires did not know that the incorrect batter could be replaced by the correct batter before the end of the at bat. (I wasn't there, fortunately, so I couldn't embarass my daughter by "helping" the umpires with the rules.)

Believe it or not, this mistake occurs repeatedly at these lower levels. For the situations we have been talking about in this post, the rules in MLB and Federation (baseball and softball) are the same. There are some minor differences regarding when an appeal is too late. But under all these rules, the proper batter can always be inserted before the end of the at-bat, and the proper batter is always the one put out when a timely appeal is made. We need to do a better job educating the brethren on this.

In my association, the interpreter always makes a dramatic presentation on the BOO rule. Each year he says that we all should get down on our knees and pray before each game that BOO does not occur. He claims it is a most confusing rule. I am convinced that he has successfully persuaded 75% or more of our members that they cannot understand the rule. That perception has thus become reality. I am clueless why he does this.

The BOO rule is about as simple as it can be. Call the "proper batter" out when a timely appeal is made, and get the next batter who follows the proper batter to the plate.

The BOO rule is about as simple as it can be.

Except that different codes handle it differently. Fed differs from OBR, for example. What code does your association operate under?

I think the only difference is whether outs made by the imporper batter putting the ball in play stand. It's no more "different" than other rules, and is realtively simple one an umpire realizes that it should be called "Being Too Stupid To Bat When It's Your Turn."

I think the only difference is whether outs made by the improper batter putting the ball in play stand.

True, and this applies only to runners, not the batter.

There may be another difference, depending on how Fed interprets "the time of the pitch": Bases loaded, no outs. Abel is the proper batter but Baker bats out of order. Ball 4 to Baker caroms off F2's shinguard and into the dugout. All runners move up a base, and Baker proceeds to 1B. The defense then appeals the BOO.

In OBR, Baker is out [edited to say: actually Abel is out, Baker bats again . . . duh!; see next post], but the runners are permitted the advance, not on the base on balls, but on the pitch that went into DBT. I don't know how Fed would treat this play, but in ASA softball any advance made on the last pitch to the batter is nullified, no matter how such advance came about. (In another difference, ASA softball also gives the defense any out made on the improper batter.)

Regardless, all codes I know would treat the Blue Jays–Mariners incident the same way.

I think you meant Baker is removed, Abel is out, and Baker is now the batter.

Under Fed rules, an appeal is lost even if no pitch is thrown if the defense initiates a play. OBR does not expressly qualify losing the appeal on a play initiated by the defense. It says "before any play or attempted play." If an improper batter singles and then tries to steal before any pitch is thrown to the next batter, and the pitcher steps off and throws to second, under Fed the appeal is still alive. Is that true under OBR?

I think you meant Baker is removed, Abel is out, and Baker is now the batter.

Yes, thanks. Uh . . . just testing to see whether people are paying attention!


Under Fed rules, an appeal is lost even if no pitch is thrown if the defense initiates a play. OBR does not expressly qualify losing the appeal on a play initiated by the defense. It says "before any play or attempted play." If an improper batter singles and then tries to steal before any pitch is thrown to the next batter, and the pitcher steps off and throws to second, under Fed the appeal is still alive. Is that true under OBR?

If memory serves, you're right about Fed on this matter. But in OBR, any play after the end of continuing action (like the attempted steal in your scenario), whether initiated by offense or defense, cancels the right to appeal. 6.07(b) [in my 2001 book]

On the sports report, I heard that the HP umpire had never had a BOO incident in his entire MLB career, which if true, is probably what prompted the conference. Example: I've done football for 12 years, and I've only ever had 1 illegal participation flag. I was unsure how to apply that penalty: I needed help from my crew.

I heard that the HP umpire had never had a BOO incident in his entire MLB career

I didn't even consider that angle. He probably knew the rule once, but never having been confronted with the situation, forgot how to rule on it. I know that could happen to me.

I was present at the game yesterday and registered to join this discussion. I'm a fan and rat so admittedly I don't know much when it comes to rule technicalities and don't know what an OBR is (I was the only person it seemed at the game who had any clue what was going on although my first instinct was that Russ Adams was in the lineup in place of Aaron Hill, and it wasn't a BOO situation, this happened earlier in the season with John McDonald and Royce Clayton).

What happened was John Gibbons intended to have Lyle Overbay bat before Aaron Hill. This was the line-up posted in the dugout and on the screen at the Dome. The line-up provided to the umpires and the opposing manager had Hill before Overbay. What I found most interesting was that Hill and Gibbons didn't argue the call at all (I joined the boo birds though). Gibby admitted he signed the card without checking it and took responsibility for the error.

Here's where I get confused.

Overbay obviously batted out of order. Hill then followed, also out of order. I'm having trouble with the logic of the out being charged to Zaun. Are you saying that the order does not depend on the numerical sequence of batters in the inning, but rather who would naturally follow the actual batter? I would think, logically, that the error was having the wrong person batting in the 7 spot (Hill for Overbay), but some of you seem to be saying that the error was not having the correct person follow Overbay (Zaun) in the 8 spot. What I figured was that if the Jays figured out the mistake they could have Overbay bat for the second time in the inning. What you folks seem to be saying is that once the wrong person bats, the next person who should bat is the person following this batter, providing the opposing team does not discover the mistake. Hypothetically then, if Zaun came up after Overbay and had a pitch thrown to him, effectively skipping Aaron Hill altogether, would the Jays be fine because they would get back into order?

I know that all sounds confusing, so if nobody can understand what I am asking please let me know and I'll try again.

BJ - first OBR is the Official Baseball Rules (those by which MLB plays). These rules do differ slightly on some subjects from FED (National Federation/high School) and NCAA.

On the BOO - the proper batter should be called out, if the defense appeals the BOO prior to the first pitch to the next batter (or prior to any play). Once that first pitch is thrown, the wrong batter has become legal. And yes that means skip Hill in this case until his next time at bat. Since Overby batted then Hill got a hit - Hill is out of turn - Zaun follows Overby. Overby's at bat was legalized by the first pitch to Hill. Thus whoever follows Overby (Zaun) is the correct batter. Zaun should have been called out (for BOO) and whoever followed him in the order should have batted next (Hill removed from 2B obviously).

Once the Illegal actions are made legal, then the numerical sequence no longer matters - it matters only who follows the actual batter. When the appeal is made is the key to this rule, and understanding it.

I think you're right. You have to have talent and rules knowledge but, by no means, do you have to be the best in these areas to rise through the ranks.

There are certainly other factors. Personality ... politics ... friends in high places ... game management skills ... etc.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David, anyone, is there re-testing of rules, mechanics or other knowledge sets after you make it to the Bigs?

I have limited knowledge of this, but no, there is no "re-testing"

They meet every year prior to the season (in early Feb). At which time I think they cover some rules, etc. They don't cover mechanics so much (from what I've been told). I got the feeling it's more of a "OK guys, here's your crew, the season's not far off...Thanks for coming have a safe trip home" meeting.

The brings up another question - What affect do the evaluations have on their status? Can MLB send them back down? I would think that the union would not allow that. Also, what kind of affect does the union have on keeping "sub par" officials? Do they have an intervention? "Dude, you're kicking calls like they stole from you. Tighten up or your out.":rolleyes:

Thanks for the explanation MIB. I am still having trouble with a few things. You had stated that Hill should be removed from 2B. Why exactly is that? He just missed his turn and was not really replaced by anyone. You also say the out should be charged to Zaun for BOO. In actuality, Hill was the one batting in Zaun's place (with Overbay's at-bat being legalized by the pitch to Hill) - so how exactly is Zaun BOO, it's still Hill commiting the act, no?

On the screen at the Dome they charged Hill with an at-bat. Assuming Zaun was properly charged with the out, why must his average suffer for the error? Also, why wipe-out the double? In the same way statistics count should an inning not count due to something like a suspended game, why can't Zaun get some credit for the hit? Does the pitcher have the pitches wiped from his strike-ball count as well?

The screen on the Dome should not have charged Hill with an AB, and Zaun was not out for batting out of order himself, he was out for Hill batting out of order when Zaun was supposed to bat. The act being punished is Zaun failing to hit in his spot.

Here is the simplified version of the BOO rule as it applies here.:

Whoever was supposed to be batting at the time Batting Out of Order is brought to the attention of the umpire is the player that is called out. If Zaun was supposed to have batted, then he is called out, and Hill, who batted out of order, is removed from the base for his illegal at bat. Make any sense yet?:)

This is what the rule says:

6.07 comment: There are two fundamentals to keep in mind: When a player bats out of turn, the proper batter is the player called out. If an improper batter bats and reaches base or is out and no appeal is made before a pitch to the next batter, or before any play or attempted play, that improper batter is considered to have batted in proper turn and establishes the order that is to follow.

Zaun is charged with an at bat according to the scoring rules (which we umpires really don't care much about anyway), the putout goes to the catcher, and everything to do with the improper batter (Hill) reaching base safely is ignored. See rule 10.03d

In fantasy land, I suppose you're right. However, the on-field crew apparently erred in their application of the rule. Do you expect that a Dome employee be able to provide the correct ruling on batting out of order? :confused:

No, I was just trying to establish that Hill should not be charged with an at-bat. I certainly don't imagine too many scoreboard operators know rule 6.07 by heart.;)

Originally Posted by fitump56
David, anyone, is there re-testing of rules, mechanics or other knowledge sets after you make it to the Bigs?
Isn't that just dandy. :rolleyes:

I have never heard od an umpire being sent back down except when they were st00pid enough to follow Richie Phillips who one said “Umpires don’t have a stat line. That’s why they all think they’re the best. And it’s a good thing they feel that way.”

http://www.roadsidephotos.com/baseball/bb99-5.htm

Like that should matter. :rolleyes:

Thanks again for the explanation.

Can we expect MLB to get the stats right and charge Zaun with the AB and credit Hill with an ofer, or would that require an official protest by the Jays (which obviously will not happen)?

I read the rule last night and what I found most interesting is that any players who advanced during the illegal AB (by way of passed-ball, WP, steal, etc.) do not have to go back to where they were had the AB not happened.

MLB Gameday also got it wrong, but I would imagine they'd just follow the incorrect umpires ruling which is technically the "official" ruling.

I have always thought that what is written in the J/R is a great way to determine the last legal batter in BOO appeals.

When an at bat has just been completed and the defense appeals that the offense has BOO, the plate umpire should:

1. Determine which players were the last two players to bat.

2. Acknowledge that the second last player to bat was (and always is) legal due to the pitch or pitches made to the player who batted after him.

3. Locate the second last batter's name on the lineup card. The player following him on the line up card is the proper batter; such proper batter was responsible for taking his place at bat as the last batter. [6.02a] If any other player batted, he was improper.

I have explained this to several people in my association and have gotten back glassy eyed stares. I don't know why. This makes great sense to me because it determines the last legal batter. Once that is established the penalties are easy to enforce.