That's a balk (video)
 

Check out this YouTube video of Vanderbilt pitcher, David Price, explaining the importance of a good pickoff move.

Yeah - I guess so!

Check out this video and tell me if you don't think every one of his examples is a balk.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I don't know about every pick off throw shown as not all give enough information (for me) --- that being said I can say that one in the middle of the vidio which was a view from 'home plate' area I certainly have a balk. His pivot foot DOES NOT gain direction more towards 1B than home. In fact it appears to me as if it is directly home. The thing that I don't understand -- with at least 3 umpires it was not called. Seems very strange....:confused:

Just a hunch, but I think maybe the first base umpire balked him in that second clip, due to his reaction...but hey, just a guess...

They all looked like balks to me. I did not think he stepped toward first base on any of his moves.

"NCAA9.3.c While in a pitching position, throw to any base in an attempt to retire a runner without first stepping directly toward such base; or throw or
feint a throw toward any base when it is not an attempt to retire a runner
or prevent the runner from advancing;
(1) The pitcher, while touching the pitcher’s rubber, must step toward
the base, preceding or simultaneous with any move toward that
base. The pitcher is committed, upon raising the lead leg, to throw
to the base being faced, to second base or to the plate. When throwing
or feinting a throw to a base not being faced, the pitcher must
step immediately, directly and gain ground toward that base."

I would have to say this didn't happen however, this is where a umpiring team needs a pregame to discuss who is going to be watching what when this guy pitches with an R1.

The pitcher hisself stated that a lefty can be more deceptive and get away with it. He is right, a good lefty can make you have a real bad day. And of course when your are on that diamond you definetly don't have the benefit of a video replay.

This is exactly the reason that there needs to be a complete revamping of how we treat LHP in the first place. No RHP gets anywhere near this leeway/cheating of the rules.

A RHP can't physically do what a LHP can do on a move to 1B. That's why you don't see "leeway." No need to revamp rules. They just need to be enforced more consistantly, some of which is very hard to do with a 2-man crew.

Originally Posted by fitump56
This is exactly the reason that there needs to be a complete revamping of how we treat LHP in the first place. No RHP gets anywhere near this leeway/cheating of the rules.
I thought it was obvious that I was comparing moves to the bag that a P faces. Guess not.

Like the old-to-new strike zone, this rule needs to be enforced equally for RHP and LHP.

Missed that - my bad.

But on that note - RHP faces 3B - he isn't required to throw to 3B. The rules are completely different for 1B and 3B. I understand you are talking about the direction of the step, gaining distance and direction, etc

But I don't understand what revamping you suggest, as the rules are very different for the different bases (regardless of handedness of the pitcher)

Please explain

A RHP can do what a lefty does, except he does it toward 3rd base, as opposed to first. The identical move!

The difference is that a move toward 1st is more common and more useful. Pickoff attempts at 3rd are very rare.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

You may be right, but I think the look of disgust on his face is because there was a very close play at 1st and the umpire called him save. I think Price thought the runner was out.

But you could be correct.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

The move that starts at the 37 second mark in the clip should be called a balk by every umpire on the face of the earth no matter what code you're playing under.

After reading your post, I remembered having a coach argue the direction of the foot when a RHP stepped to 3B. (identical to the argument we all have on LHP). I'm not sure why it didn't come to me sooner.

I'd contend that the move, if illegal, doesn't get called when RHP doesn't throw to 3B, just the step and feint. And many of those steps are immediately followed by a turn to 1B. One may not notice "distance and direction" as easily when he makes so much movement. I'd like to think that on tha actual pick off attempt at 3B it would be called the same as LHP to 1B. But in reality, they probably have more leeway than LHP for the fact that you pointed out, it's not seen as often. What I mean is that we are looking all the time for an illegal move to 1B by LHP. We simply watch the move of the RHP to 3B, and when something illegal jumps out, we call it.

To be honest, in my little (NCAA D3) world, every move in the video would get a balk call. It would come from the PU, since we still work 2-man in those games. At least it would if *I* was the PU.

The hardest part about the left hander is the judgement of gaining distance toward first base on that type of move. In two man system the BU is almost always stuck with the inability of not being able to watch the complete step and still follow the ball to the bag for a possible tag. This is where the PU also has to be on his toes and looking for the step towards the bag.

With a BU behind First, at least he can tell if the leg is going more towards home then first however, it is still tough to totally see if the leg is gaining distance. Again the PU or a BU at second can make this call.

There is also the discussion about gaining distance and landing the foot at a place that is greater than a 45 deg. angle from the Pitching plate. Anything past the line is toward first and before the line is toward home plate.

Others feel that any apppreciable distance also satisfies the rules.

I don't know the answer but, one thing for sure, be prepared with a lefty on the mound and a R1, because when you miss it the first time, it will be hard to establish a good precedent from thereon.

To me it is one of the tougher judgement calls we have to make out there.

I am still open to suggestions.

His other moves would be acceptable at the MLB level I think.

He can do it but IME a RHP rarely gets the leeway of non pivot foot landings significantly toward home as the LHP does, not even close.

IME I havne't seen very many RHP who "test" the rules by landind as far as the LHP in the video. Any ump worth his salt is going to balk that RHP again IME so it is commonly known and not taught to try to take such advantage. A balk here costs a run, at 1B it's an advancement and in small ball, where stealing 2B is more common than not, not much is lost.

I am for equality in rules treatment when a throw is made by P regardless of (L)(R)HP. There is no reason that makes any sense why we umpire this way.

Many left-handers employ a technique of masking the placement of their free foot by immediately walking away after making the throw. They do not pose.

In the video, you will notice David Price does this. Most LHP's with a "marginal" move will do this. They usual continue walking toward 1st after making the throw.

Frequently the umpires are as surprised by the pickoff as the runner. The umpires look back at the pitcher, to check on the placement of his free foot, and the evidence is already long gone. So - since they didn't see it - they resign themselves that they'll just have to look closer next time.

Of course, if the umpire is specifically looking for the placement of the free foot ... if he's focusing on it ... the pitcher is screwed if, in fact, he is going beyond the 45-degree line.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Very good point.

There is one time in particular that come to mind that I would have been picked off had I been the runner. (Adult league) LHP had an increbile move to 1B - I called R1 safe (I think I missed it due to my own surprise) - but became very aware of where F1 placed his foot. He tried it again, and I balked him. Of course he went ballistic saying that I can't call that in a two man, I can't see it. His foot was not far from where he landed when going home - it was rather obviuos.

Do you do college ball, David? If so, are you a member of the Memphis org?

The fact that the pitcher is telling you what you can and can't see in a "two man" indicates that he is violating the rule and is relying on the "fact" that it can't be verified. A silly argument.

I've only called a few college games in my "career" - all of which were junior colleges. No big time teams. I don't have the time for that. Too much traveling. My real job precludes that kind of commitment.

Most of my experience is at the high school varsity level. And, quite frankly, the better high school teams in this area could have easily defeated the junior college teams that I saw.

This area is a hotbed of high school baseball talent. The state champion usually comes from the west Tennessee area and many of the players get Div I scholarships to big schools, some of whom are drafted directly into professional baseball. Baseball talent here is more recognized than football, which is rather atypical for the south.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Yes it is - and you've actually understated it. It is a hotbed (still understated) of baseball talent at all ages. It's amazing the number of teams from Memphis that have a lot of talent on them.

Watch the "See a Balk, Call a Balk" video if you are unsure about the balk rule. I learned almost everything I know about balks from this tape. It's great to have a visual reference to back up the calls I make. This video provides that visual reference.

You should consider throwing that video in the trash and buying the Evans DVD on balks.


Balk Video


Tim.

This explains a lot.

That video is probably the worst one out there. There is some content that is completely contrary to ML interpretation. I'm amazed it's still sold. I'm more amazed that anyone still buys it.

Can you please explain to me what interpretations the video gets wrong? Nobody in my association has ever questioned it.

Off the top of my head....check out Dodgeball ref's explanation of when a pitcher is considered throwing to an empty base.

I have no doubt that's true.

This reminds me of the time when, at one our mandatory, preseason umpire meetings, when a DVD series was played regarding the rules. It was completely based on OBR rules. Even the rule reference numbers were of the OBR variety. This is for high school baseball!

Of course, much of it applied, but some of it absolutely did not apply - especially in the area of balks.

It also claimed that stepping on the plate, when hitting a pitched ball, was not a violation unless the entire foot is out of the batter's box when contact is made. That is true under OBR. Untrue under FED.

I looked around the room and everybody was watching the video as if nothing was wrong.

I felt like standing up a screaming, "Do you guys realize this is a video on the wrong set of rules????"

I just shook my head. It was typical. The meetings are supposed to be instructional and are completely useless. In fact, a lot of negative training gets done. We have a horrible organization. It's just a good ole boy network where all the guys who have been around forever listen to themselves talk and tell war stories.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Agreed. For the others he may have been stepping on the 45 degree (hard to tell from the video) line but this one was more like 65 degrees.

Hey, Dodgeball was a good movie!! :D

I never knew Al Kaplon was the ref until you pointed that out! He looks totally different in Dodgeball than in the movie i own (his 90' mechanics video, which is much better quality than his balk video).


Also, to add an incorrect interp, off the top of my head, he says the "bounce" is considered a legal stop in NCAA ball- FALSE!!

Do you get your tests for the THSSAA (sp) handed to you prior to test day and get to take the test with no time limits, an open book and any notes you want?

This is dangerous territory for you, Young Man. Ump orgs are full of witless doofi, especially the aged officers and management, and they have no real desire to upset their gravy train of money, power and influence.

You start spouting off the actual, obvious and real problems and you'll get banned. Wait, I got banned here. :eek:

Point being, learn all you can, become as good as you can, expect that this may not work in your favor. Sadly. :(

That video is to balks what porn is to "Apocolypse Now", trash to greatness. :p

"That's a balk for the rest of this game." Nothing else needs to be said, you don't have to justify your eyesight or angle. God, I love callin' these MSBLers.:D

You got climate issues in ETenn for baseball, you have UT football and baseball doesn't conflict seasonally with basketball in the Delta. And MSU football blows so no competition there.

WTenn feeds in EArk, NMiss players. The Tigers (yeah, I do my homework) are a big part of that.

Don't ask about my experiences with Bill Speros, McCarver, the Gaglianos, Mike Roos, ppl here call me names and yell at me, it hertz my feelings. :(

Which Tigers are you talking about? The UM Tigers or the Memphis Tigers?

I run into those guys you mentioned all the time.

Memphis, David is or was a Coach, my Boss as well. We called a bunch of their games, Tobey Field, Southhaven Ms, various parks. Boss' sons payed for them. I wonder if they still have those Godawful yellow/green uniforms

Yep - still yellow and green, although they don't look so bad

It's TSSAA (Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association)

We use the open book test as a group project during our mandatory meetings. We just go around the room and take turn reading and answering the questions. If anybody has any questions, we address right there on the spot.

The closed book exam is taken individually, with books closed, and no time limit. The taking of the closed book exam is not mandatory. But failure to do so, and score 90% or above, prohibits an umpire from getting any District, Regional, or State playoff assignments.

Also, there is no feedback on test results. We take the test and that's the last we hear of it. We don't find out if we "passed", "failed", or what our score was. We hand it in, walk out of the room, and that's it.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I was never the head coach. Didn't have the time. I just helped out with the pitchers. But, yes, I did coach a Memphis Tiger team. We played a lot of tournaments at Snowden Grove (Southaven, MS).

Who in the hell are you?

You're creepin' me out, man! I hate it when somebody knows me but I don't know them. Where do you live?

David Emerling
[email protected]

Yep, Snowden in MS, hmm thinking of Memphis Snowden, Farigrounds, Davis and Bartlett Park.

Funny story, Boss was just out of college, came back to call Tiger ball (after starting it see below) at CBHS. Tiger coaches moaning and groaning about how bad the field was. Boss was one of three who planted all the pine trees on the hillside, infield grass, etc as an Alumni. :eek: Beat the penal Farm and the old CBHS - Parkway.

Quote:

Who in the hell are you?

I live in far away SW FL these days, island bound. I'm PWL, didn't you know? :D No, that's Tyler, I'm, oh hell, I fergit.

I hear your boys turned into players, congrats. We knew Hagan when he called US on how to coach and the crap about Donato and Mills starting the Tigers is just that...crap. Boss came up with the concept in '64.

Saw Mike Shannon, the last game of the old Chicks, and Sputnick over Tobey at the same time. Watched Russwood Park burn down.

I'm tragcally hertz you don't know me, ole SLL Cards fan, we talked on our Sprint phones and about our new GPS devices. Here, I thought you loved me. :(

David,

What you described is the way it worked in my area prior to last year, but my baseball and football associations in Middle Tennessee took our "closed book" tests online last year, and I thought the TSSAA went to online testing statewide. We had a week-long window in which to complete it. An official could go online and print the test early in the week, use the books (and other officials) to complete it, then go back online and enter the answers anytime prior to the end of the week. Feedback was immediate. It told us our score and which ones we missed as soon as we hit submit.

One neat thing about the testing procedure was each individual test was pulled from a pool of approximately 200 questions. That eliminated the ability of anyone just getting the answers from someone else, as there was only a small probability of two officals having the same identical test.

The passing score was 80% last year. It was 70% prior to the online testing. I like the 90% level, and hope they do go to it if they have not already done so. If you cannot make 90%, especially open book with other officials assisting you, you probably have no business in the playoffs.

I am all 4 online testing, but it is impossible to determine who took the test (unless you are the NSA :D ). Not like massive cheating doesn't already exist..:rolleyes:

Good idea. :)

The better idea, IMO, is to have mandatory online courses, with quizzes and a online and in-person test with required ID. This should close most of the cracks for cheating.

http://forum.officiating.com/showpos...30&postcount=1