Yankees-Red Sox out of baseline
 

On a ground ball, A-Rod just tried to tag Youkilis but was unable to reach him as Youkilis ran inward to avoid the tag on his way to 3B. The original call was nothing, but Torre went out, the umpires huddled, and then they called Youkilis out. The Boston manager has now been tossed, but it was the right call.

Interestingly, the Yankee announcers admitted that they didn't know the rule. But it was a perfect instructional case of base path versus base line, and Youkilis was definitely out of the base path (but apparently not the direct line between the bases).

Now the announcers, having asked somebody nearby, are proceeding to confuse millions a viewers by "explaining" the rule.

Help me out
 

On first viewing, it looked like her came too far off line and I felt the runner should have been called out and was not surprised that the call was reversed. But the more I see it the more I'm not so sure.

I might have the rule completely misinterpreted, but I thought the runner is out if he veers more than 3-feet from from wherever the tag is attempted. He appears to be on the base line and base path all the way to the point where A-Rod is positioned. Then he veers, but never more than 3-feet, again from what I can tell. He moves off the line (and path) after the tag is attempted, as his momentum carried him that way, but is within 3-feet before the attempt and at the point of attempt.

So was the initial call right?

The runner's line is from his position to the base. He has 3' either side. Any adult can reach the three feet - so of the fielder reaches and the runner goes around there is a pretty reasonable probability that he exceeded the three foot limit.

Thanks. Makes sense. But even still, I wouldn't call A-Rod's tag attempt more than half-hearted, more of a reach out in front of him. so i don't think the runner was more than three feet away from him. But sounds like that's a moot point if the 3-feet is defined by the line he was on, not the attempt at a tag.

It appeared to me that when A-Rod got the ball and began his play on the runner, Youkilis was running about 3 feet on the outfield side of the 2B-3B line. His attempted dodge of the tag put him well inside the 2B-3B line, though perhaps not a full 3 feet. So to avoid the tag, Youkilis certainly moved more than 3 feet out of the base path he had established.

It wasn't where Youkilis was in relation to the 2B-3B line, but how far he moved to avoid the tag. Wish I had pictures to post of this play.

If you watched the replays of this play from the camera that was behind third base, this was really a no brainer play. Youkalis took at least four steps to his left to avoid the tag and probably ran a good 10 feet away from A-Rod to avoid the tag. I also wouldn't call the tag attempt half hearted, he really did try and make and attempt to tag him.

I was surprised that the call wasn't made in real time, as it should have been an easy call for whoevers call it was (not sure whose call this is using four man mechanics).

If Youkalis was real smart he would have veered right so that A-Rod would either not have attempted to tag him or if he did, wouldn't have been able to make the throw to first. If Youkalis was just smart, he would have run over A-Rod ala Albert Belle.

Uke was heading in before the ball was in A-Rod's glove. He continues to head in as the feeble tag attempt is made then once past A-Rod, Uke hits the grass and turns toward 3rd.

The correct call was the first call. But then, we have to have a friggen meeting and 3 guys that have no view of the play seem to get the cal changed. The only real fault was the 3rd base umpire had no balls to stay with his call. The baseball diamond is turning into a flippen board room and I am really getting tired of it!

I had a similar play a couple of years ago. I did not call the runner out and he slid into 2nd base safely. I ended up tossing a defensive player and the defensive manager but the call was correct.

How's the weather north of New Haven?

You are either blind of a member of "the Nation". Youkalis took 4 steps to get away from the tag. It was blatantly obvious on the replay and shouldn't have been missed in the first place.

They did the right thing getting together and changing the call. U2 should have a just as good of a view of the play if he was watching the ball. U3 should have had the out in the first place.

If you're a Yankees fan, it was a great call. If you're a BoSox fan, it was a terrible call.

What else is new?

I am...but I like Ozzy's point.

This is a judgment call and it's the U3's call exclusively all the way. Whether or not U3 was correct, he needs to die with his JUDGMENT call. There's no ball on the ground or checked swing appeal. It's just one umpire's judgment...did Youk move more than 3 feet away from his baseline to avoid a play being made on him? Maybe, but U3 said no. It should have ended there.

D

Youk, probably should have pulled an A-Rod and slapped the glove and hoped the ball fell out.

The weather in Plattsburgh NY is COLD. Of course that is really north of N. Haven. Just in case someone wanted to know.

I have to go along with Ozzy, as a Red Sox fan I thought it was a terrible call !!!!!!!!!!! Even if I didn't see it. (The dang hotel doesn't show the game. )

Say what?

According to the game report, the problem was that there were <b>TWO</b> first calls. Cousins on 2B called Youkilis safe. Carlson on 3B called him out. That's why they got together.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270830110

Would a MLU guy lie?

I was listening on the radio but when the play happened I call a friend of mine (Yankee fan) and he said Carlson booted the call (see my previous entry for today's definition of "booting"). If the play is going into third it's U3's call. I've got an eyewitness who tells me Carlson (U3, by the way) called Youk safe.

As Tee would say...Hmmmmm.....

D

nope
 

they AND you blew it.

Watch the replay here http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=nyy. Click on "Francona's Ejection" that is along the right side under Related Links. You can clearly see Youkilis take four steps away from Rodriguez as he attempting to tag him. Rodriguez didn't just flip the glove out there either, he went to a full out stretch to tag Youkilis and still couldn't tag him.

The video doesn't lie folks. Youkilis was out of the baseline and properly called out by Carlson initially and after the huddle.

When does Carlson call him out BEFORE the huddle?

I'm guessing that the MLB approach is to not signal safe when a close pay happens on a tag where the tag is missed. If in fact this approach does exist, then at least the story would include the Us mentioning the safe called from U2 is for the missed tag and U3 signalled out for leaving the basepath.

As it was, Francona was upset that U3 didn't have as good a look, in his opinion. He likely knows little about mechanics, so his claim has backbone only if he got lucky.

I'm guessing that since the play is going to 3B, the call is U3's. Why then did U2 make a call? I bet Cousins, U2, got the crew together and led the crew into reversing his crap call.

Thanks.

I have him safe.

Really??? Even after watching the video and seeing him run away from Rodriguez and take at least four steps and end up on the infield grass. Wow!

Please don't tell me you don't umpire any games in my area.

ARod took two steps forward and still couldn't touch Youkalis.

In the end, the correct call was made and I'm a Red Sox fan.

Although the runner began his route before the fielder had the ball, he clearly deviated more than a reach (and thus more than 3') as the fielder played on him. I have him out as well, and I'm surprised that the MLB guys missed it the first time around.

My speculation would be that, if there were in fact two different calls, the 3B umpire called the runner out of the baseline (he had a good angle on that), and the 2B umpire called "no tag" (he had a good angle on that). But they got it right in the end...

Not bad, Don, from what I have heard. Pretty much going to be in the 80's with less humidity for the holiday weekend.

Regards

This is a conspiracy. MLB can't stand the thought of having a playoff tournament without the Yankees...so they and their lackeys (the umps) have conspired to make sure the Yanks at least get the wild card. This is Bullsh!t.

That was a brutal call!

(Just joking...the umps absolutely got that call right.)

The only thing that I can say is Yuke was on the grass after passing A-Rod. His deviation at the time of the attempted tag was not more than three feet. And yes, I am a Red Sox fan but believe me, I'd feel the same way if A-Rod was the runner. This is my opinion and the way that I would judge the play. I am more pi$$ed about turning the diamond into a board room but it's all history and I am ready to move on!

Regards

That would have been great if A-Rod was in the baseline at the time of attempted tag. Has no one realized that camera angle is not directly over third base? The infield grass is just two feet inside the baseline, A-rod was not even in the actual baseline when the tag was attempted. His glove during the tag barely made the baseline! I'm not a fan of either team, and it's obvious, a fan sees what they want to see.

When judging this play, we need to decide when the baseline is established. This type of call is 100% judgement, and a tough sell either way. It's tough because the baseline is not established by a static reference point.
So when did Arod begin to tag Youk? I say at about 0:19 of Jim Porter's video link. Now Youk move to his left. Did he move three feet? Maybe, but I really don't think its as easy a call as some would believe.

I had him safe in live action and out after the replay.

As an aside, why didn't Arod just start the 5-4-3 double play on this ball?

~sigh~

You can't be serious... please read rule 7.08.

You don't know the rule.

A fielder gets the ball. He reaches for the runner going right by him and misses. A man's arms are about 3 feet long. If the fielder misses the tag, the runner has deviated more than 3 feet from his baseline. The runner is out. QED

If you don't follow this line of reasoning, your fanboy circuits have blocked your logical circuits.

I had Youkilis out yesterday and still have him out. From his position when this became a tag play, he moved at least 5 feet inward to avoid the tag.

The infield grass is just two feet inside the baseline

True, but irrelevant. If a runner is 3 feet to outfield side of the line and then moves 2 feet inside the line to avoid a tag, he's out of the base path. If Youkilis had started right on the direct line between 2B and 3B, then being on the grass would not have put him out of his base path.

Here's an eye test for those who think the runner is not three feet out of his basepath.

Garth...can you please write that in a larger font next time... I'm having a little trouble readin' it!!

As any umpire knows, the baseLINE is completely irrelevant, and only confuses the issue. The question is twofold - WHEN does ARod's tag attempt supposedly begin? Is it the moment he starts heading toward Uke (which it seems most of us believe), or is it the moment ARod is starting to reach (which it seems only Ozzy and WitlessUmp believe). The other question is - how far from the line made between Uke and 3rd base, at the moment that tag attempt began, did Uke move. If more than 3 feet, he's out. If not, he's not.

Now this is not true either. I too have an out on this play, but the logic that any runner going around a fielder must have gone 3 feet is false. ARod was not directly between Uke and the base when the tag attempt started - so the length of ARod's arm shouldn't be the measurement that matters.

I only saw the replay a couple of times.

Youkalis went way past 3 feet away from his basepath from the time A-Rod initiated his tag attempt. He was out there on the grass and made a wide turn just to get out there.

And I hate the Yankees and love the Red Sox. The umpires got it right.

IMO, the call of Out /safe is irrlevant. The call belonged to U3 and at the time in his judgement (right or wrong) he ruled Youkillis safe.


Then all the umpires huddled and the call was changed. Why did U3 change the call? - Do not know

IMO, this is similar to CB's call in the Mets / Phillies game. CB made the call PERIOD. He did not huddle with his fellow officials and ask for THEIR JUDGEMENT. He trusted his judgement right or wrong.

This type of "thing" trickles down to the amateur game where for the most part there are only 2 of us.

One of these days, there will be a few controversial calls in a game. Then what! every time the official who made the call has to huddle. Suppose on the next play there was a close call at third. The coaches will come out and ask that U3 "huddle" with his partners to see if any of them had a better angle.

Once you let "pandora out of her box" get ready.

IMO, this situation is not about safe / out but about umpire judgement. Apparently one of the other umpires convinced U3 that HIS judgement was better than U3's

Note: I am not a Red Sox Fan

Pete Booth

According to the reports on the game, Carlson (U3) had the Youkilis out initially and Cousins (U2) had him safe. I read one person on this thread, D-Man say he called a friend who said the opposite happened, but I tend to believe the game report.

If there were two calls, then there was a darn good reason for a huddle.

But they already do come out and ask you to seek help. I see it happen at least a few times each season. If you're confident about your call the correct response is, "It's my call. I don't need help."

Sure wasn't. But to admit such, several in this thread who shot their mouths off prior to Jim Porter's video (thx Jim) will have to admit they screwed uyp, Chances, none to nil.:eek:

Alright, I went back and watched the video that Jim Porter supplied. I reran it over and over on the definitive shot. A-Rod had the ball in the glove, his right hand holding the ball and looking right at Youkilis. Youkilis at that point makes a giant step directly left to avoid a tag. AR then chases him farther left, reaches as far as he can, and Youkilis is even farther out of reach.

Youkilis started his dodge of the tag at least 6 feet in on the dirt, and was on the edge of the grass when he slipped past the tag by at least a foot.

There was a minimum of 6 feet of deviation from the time A-Rod began to attempt a tag and the time the tag was avoided. So, to my convoluted way of thinking, Youkilis went 2 times past the legal limit in avoiding a tag attempt.

And I'm a Red Sox fan, once again, so my opinion is not fanboy related at all, but an honest assessment of the facts.

Steven Tyler, please quit harassing Sandiegosteve. You've been doing this for quite a long time now, and I think it is time for you to let bygones be bygones. You two have obviously feuded in the past, and maybe it is time to sort your problems out constructively over email or phone or something.

Steven Tyler, you are a good guy who was one of the few people that treated me decently at ABUA. But I still think that a bit more maturity would help you sort out your conflict with SDS.