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-   -   Lightening (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/37752-lightening.html)

azscump9 Fri Aug 24, 2007 09:37am
Agreed that "heat lightning" may be a misnomer, but as we were told at an NCAA meeting is that any lightning is dangerous. Lighting has been know to stike up to 30 miles away from a storm. So if you see it off in the distance, but hear no thunder, it should peek you interest and awareness of the impending situation

Rich Ives Fri Aug 24, 2007 09:44am
We have a weather radio and a SkyScan lightning detector. (If the cable provider was kinder we'd have the Weather Channel so we could see the radar). The radio has a really obnoxious alarm when storm warnings are issued. You have to listen to see if it's near you.

The SkyScan is set for 8-20 miles. If it goes off we clear the fields.

A Florida poster on eteamz said his park has a "pro" system that automatically sets off lightning sirens. The system also sounds an "all clear". It takes the human element out of the equation.

mbyron Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives
A Florida poster on eteamz said his park has a "pro" system that automatically sets off lightning sirens. The system also sounds an "all clear". It takes the human element out of the equation.
It doesn't take the human element out, since someone is still deciding to use the system and to follow its recommendations.

The system just adds a corporation to the list of people to sue when someone gets hurt.

For all I know, the thing works as advertised and minimizes risk; I'm just sayin. :cool:

lawump Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
It doesn't take the human element out, since someone is still deciding to use the system and to follow its recommendations.

The system just adds a corporation to the list of people to sue when someone gets hurt.

For all I know, the thing works as advertised and minimizes risk; I'm just sayin. :cool:
I like the way you're thinking...I might have an associate position opening just for you in my firm. :D

BretMan Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:17am
The NOAA web site would seem to indicate that the 30/30 version of the ligtning safety rule IS NOT what they endorse.

The guideline published there is the "hear or see thunder, wait thirty minutes" rule.

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/overview.htm

See the last "bullet-pointed" item.

GarthB Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan
The NOAA web site would seem to indicate that the 30/30 version of the ligtning safety rule IS NOT what they endorse.

The guideline published there is the "hear or see thunder, wait thirty minutes" rule.

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/overview.htm

See the last "bullet-pointed" item.
1. NOAA created the fist 30/30 rule
2. The last bullet provides the "ultimate" procedure, in the words of the local Weather Station supervisor. "The 30/30 plan is a practical and easy to remember procedure we recommend other associations use.

johnSandlin Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:40am
crowder,

If I wanted a science lesson, I would have emailed a local television station in my area and talked their weather person.

Plus, you can have either or. It just happened at my house not 48 hours ago before a storm blew through. There was just lightning for a while with no thunder. Then, there was no lightning, but thunder was heard.

You do not need one to have the other. This is an officiating forum and not a science class.

I was merely stating a statement that was posted on our state's athletic association website.

GarthB Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnSandlin
crowder,

If I wanted a science lesson, I would have emailed a local television station in my area and talked their weather person.

Plus, you can have either or. It just happened at my house not 48 hours ago before a storm blew through. There was just lightning for a while with no thunder. Then, there was no lightning, but thunder was heard.

You do not need one to have the other. This is an officiating forum and not a science class.

I was merely stating a statement that was posted on our state's athletic association website.
True enough, this is an officiating forum. However when one post such erroneous statements as you have, they should be corrected whether written on an officiating forum, science forum or the wall of a public bathroom.

Thunder is a sound made by lightning. Sometimes the lightning is too far away to hear the thunder. Sometimes the lightning is obscured and all you perceive is the thinder.

But you do indeed need to have one (lightning) to get the other (thunder).

Class dismissed.

Steven Tyler Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawump
I like the way you're thinking...I might have an associate position opening just for you in my firm. :D
The name of said firm wouldn't be Dewey, Cheatum and Howe would it?

mbyron Fri Aug 24, 2007 01:00pm
According to mhsaa.com, you've violated their copyright. Please don't post copyrighted material to the forum - a link will do.

GarthB Fri Aug 24, 2007 01:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnSandlin

If I am making errorous statements, well then here is what I went from.
Here are you erroneous statements:

1. Plus, you can have either or.

2. You do not need one to have the other.

3. I was merely stating a statement that was posted on our state's athletic association website. (No where on that site do the first two statements reside.)

LomUmp Fri Aug 24, 2007 01:26pm
Ygtbsm!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnSandlin
crowder,

If I wanted a science lesson, I would have emailed a local television station in my area and talked their weather person.

Plus, you can have either or. It just happened at my house not 48 hours ago before a storm blew through. There was just lightning for a while with no thunder. Then, there was no lightning, but thunder was heard.

You do not need one to have the other. This is an officiating forum and not a science class.

I was merely stating a statement that was posted on our state's athletic association website.
Hey all,

First point, I wouldn't get weather advise from a TV weather person EVER!! They get their information from REAL weather forecasters and observers. (Military, NWS, and/or NOAA)

Second, Lightning is caused by differently charged ions interacting with each other on a grand enough scale to cause a static discharge. That is what causes lightning and lightning follows the path of least resistance in determining where it goes. Since these particles CANNOT BE SEEN, there is no way to determine where the lightning will travel to. THAT is what make lightning so dangerous.

Generally speaking thunder will be heard between 4-6 seconds per mile of distance after the lightning occurs. Air temperature and relative humidity are major, but not the only, factors.

If you are wondering about my credibility, I spent 10 years in the USAF as a weather observer (what's going on now) and forecaster (what's going on now AND in the future). I did this in New Mexico, Alaska (Yes, There are thunderstorms there!), Illinois, Southern California, Persian Gulf, and last but not least, Mississippi.

The statement you made that I quoted in bold is wrong AND irresponsible.

LomUmp:cool:

Publius Fri Aug 24, 2007 01:44pm
Lightening is good
 
Lightening is a good indicator that you may be able to resume a game that has been suspended due to lightning. My experience has been that lightning is generally preceded by darkening. When the atmospheric disturbance moves away from the field, typically the lightning goes with it, and that is followed by lightening.

Of course, if the lightning is observed near dusk, it may be succeeded by darkening instead of lightening. In this case, darkening may be an indicator that the game can be resumed. That's only on fields with lights, though.

And if the field got an extreme soakening, it doesn't matter if lightning is followed by lightening, darkening, or whether there are lights. Field conditions will likely preclude resumption of play.

Jurassic Referee Fri Aug 24, 2007 03:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Publius
Lightening is a good indicator that you may be able to resume a game that has been suspended due to lightning. My experience has been that lightning is generally preceded by darkening. When the atmospheric disturbance moves away from the field, typically the lightning goes with it, and that is followed by lightening.

Of course, if the lightning is observed near dusk, it may be succeeded by darkening instead of lightening. In this case, darkening may be an indicator that the game can be resumed. That's only on fields with lights, though.

And if the field got an extreme soakening, it doesn't matter if lightning is followed by lightening, darkening, or whether there are lights. Field conditions will likely preclude resumption of play.
Thank you for enlightning us.

canadaump6 Fri Aug 24, 2007 03:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptmac
I hasten to state that the OP from CanadaUmp6 has been made without reference to any rules or practice in Ontario. The issue of lightning has been of concern for a number of years and after a number of conversations with lawyers/insurers etc the OBA have adopted the 30/30 rule. This has been posted on the website and has been part of the communication with local organizations.
1. Lightning: Please remember, the baseball season is a prime time for thunder storms, so be aware of lightning and remember the 30-30 Rule.
o • 30-30 Rule:
Determine the threat of lightning in your area.
o • 30 Seconds:
Count the seconds between seeing lightning and hearing thunder. If this time is less than 30 seconds, lightning is still a potential threat. Seek shelter immediately.
o • 30 minutes:
After the last lightning flash, wait 30 minutes before leaving shelter. Half of all lightning deaths occur after the storm passes. Stay in a safe area until you are sure the threat has passed.
If an umpire in Ontario wishes to avoid liability they must follow this rule. So far as the OP’s statement that “The base umpire has nothing to say about weather or darkness. But I decided to follow his directions as he is crew chief”. I’m not sure what rule book this comes from, but certainly not from anywhere that I’m aware of anywhere in Canada or the USA (following the good neighbour :) policy).

Just my two cents worth….
I looked all over the Baseball Ontario website and found nothing about a 30 minute rule.


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