Lightening
 

I had a game this year where I was on the bases, and we kept getting flashes of streak lightening behind the backstop where my partner was not facing. In between innings I went to him just to touch base on the weather. I told him that I was getting a bit nervous about the lightening, but that it was his call as he was plate ump. He then told me that I should say something if I feel the lightening is bad enough to suspend the game. I told him no, that is not the way it is done. The base umpire has nothing to say about weather or darkness. But I decided to follow his directions as he is crew chief.

Next inning, the lightening gets worse, so I call time and tell him that it is getting worse. He is absolutely clueless as to what to do, so I suggest we suspend the game for 10 minutes till it gets better. He agrees, so we tell both coaches the plan, and they are fine with that. I then tell him "okay 'John', let's go into the community centre building for ten minutes". He is all like "I'm not going in there, I need to stay here to watch and see if the lightening gets any worse". I tell him something along the lines of "no, it is stupid to stand around outside when we have already labelled the situation as too dangerous to be outside in the first place." And he tells me "well everyone else is still here" and I explain to him that that is not our problem, it's their responsibility to go inside now that we have suspended the ballgame.

Then I say "well I'm going inside" and tells me "fine, go". I take a few steps to leave, then decide "no that's stupid too. We are partners and have to stay together". So we wait the ten minutes, then resume the game. Then in between innings later, we are standing together discussing the weather, and a streak of lightening goes through the sky that he sees. He calls the game and we go home.

I think that it is up to partners to communicate effectively, and to always be on the same page. However the base umpire should not have any say in the suspension of a ballgame due to inclimate weather or light failure. If the plate guy can't see it, then that is just too bad. It is also important for both umpires to set a good example by practicing safety, which my partner was not willing to do in this case.

Our association has adopted the 30/30 rule.

Once lightening is observed, we begin counting. If the thunder is heard within 30 seconds of counting, the game is suspended until 30 minutes after the last lightening has occurred.

Should there be additional lightening accompanied by thunder within 30 seconds before the 30 minutes are up, the 30 minute counts starts over

All umpires are instructed to follow this procedure so communication about the issue is not an issue.

Our state high school association has adopted a rule that states that if any game official, not just the PU or head referee, sees lightning or hears thunder the game stops - period. Then you wait 30 minutes from the last flash of lightning or clap of thunder before restarting the game. The local Little League District has adopted the same policy. When I work a game for a league that has no policy, I use that same policy. If Mother Nature does not allow you to restart, too bad. Don't mess with Mother Nature. If the players and coaches don't care about their own safety, I care about mine. Lightning can kill you and you don't screw around with it.

If you see lightning and don't stop the game, I hope you have lots of money or really good liability insurance. If something bad happens, you're going to need one or the other or both.


Does your partner have a death wish. If your partner wants to be a crispy umpire, let him. If you're close enough to see lightning, you're close enough to get fried. Refer your partner to this site:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/ncaa.html or http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/index.htm

So you saw lightning, he didn't, and you didn't step up to say the game should be suspended?

Not sure about Canada, but in the US, if this happened, you'd get sued for negligence, and you'd probably lose.

I don't know about up North, but if a lawyer ever found out that you had an oppurtunity to safely stop a game and didn't, and there was an injury, you would probably be held more liable than your partner.

Safety is EVERYBODY'S responsibility.

Here, is a time when bending the rules is not only acceptable but, very wise.

Not to make light of a serious subject, Canadaump (and by extension, Garth, who answered in kind), but what you saw flashing in the sky was "lightning".

"Lightening" is something else altogether.

Maybe it's a Canadian thing, like "colour", eh? :rolleyes:

The NYS Section VI, and by extension, my own association has adopted a policy where if we hear thunder or see lightning, play is suspended for :30 min. If, within that :30 minutes there is more lightning or thunder, the coundown begins again. I had a sitch where we had that happen in a summer rec game last year and play was suspended for well over an hour.

Damn. It's that one word I screw up over and over. I could get my Phd. and I'd still screw that word up.

lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning, lightning.

There. I bet I won't screw up lightening again!

There is an active case in Spokane over this issue. I'll be reporting on in it at off.com in a couple of weeks.

Lightning
 

If your partner didn't see it, keep playing the game.

30 seconds means the lightning is 5 miles away. Even if a storm is moving at a slow 10 MPH it will be on you in 6 minutes. And a lightning bolt traveled from cloud to earth over a distance of maybe 4 miles or more, so 6 miles away ain't squat.

If I see a lightning bolt the game stops, regardless of what I hear or when I hear it. 30 minute rule applies as well. It is rare around my part of NC, to stop a game due to lightning and it get started back up. It would have to be some kind of tournament game where a 2 hour delay is better than waiting another day.

We do the same as Bassman - if we see lightning or hear thunder we clear the field for 30 minutes. It's a joint responsibility and is usually something we mention during our pre-game if the conditions warrant.

One thing I have that helps me is I have a CB radio with a WX frequency, so if the conditions are iffy at best, I'll switch this on to get the NOAA weather channel en route to my game.

One of the worst nights I had with lightning was a few years back. It was an 8:00 start on July 3. The weather report called for a chance of thunder showers. A few of the surrounding towns had fireworks displays and with the haze from the humidity in the lights it was difficult to discern what was approaching lightning and what was the flash from fireworks. It was near impossible to listen for lightning because of the boom from the fireworks and the highway that passed by the field.

I grew up in Georgia where we had some wicked lighting storms. When I was a kid, we had lighting hit our house and completely blow out my exterior bedroom wall. This happened while I was in bed at the time. So I have a real respect for lighting. Might also explain why I don't hear so good now.:eek: :)

I live in California now and it is a rarity to see it here in the San Francisco Bay area. I don’t even remember it being discussed at my association meetings. If I did see it I would use the 30/30 rule that Garth mentioned unless we have a different policy.

To me, one of the toughest calls is in games being played under the lights. After dark, one can see flashes (not bolts) from storms much farther away. It becomes harder to discern whether it is from a nearby storm or not.

I do have a great respect for lightning. About three years ago, my partner and I cleared the field during a thunderstorm. Most people took shelter in the vehicles, or in the entryway of a nearby establishment that overlooks the field. Not five minutes later, we saw a bolt of lightning strike the field in foul territory just beyond third base.

I usually call for lightening when it's too dark to see the ball well.:D

If the poster is correct on how they handle weather games up north, plus other sich's given in other posts, I think its in our northern neighbors best interest if we just attack and make Canada a US state.

A 10 minute delay? Lightning is seen but its not BU's call? I'm always amazed........

The 30/30 rule is recommended by the NOAA. We feel pretty confident using it.

Another tie for the dumbest post on the internet.

Garth, I'm going to climb out onto that lonely tree limb and say that SA was being tongue-in-cheek with his answer on this one. As soon as I read it I dismissed it at an attempt at very dark humor.

Our HS association says that any of the umpires on the game can stop the game due dangerous conditions. Lightning sighted is an automatic 20 minute delay. If another bolt is sighted, the clock starts from the time of the sighting. Upon the first sighting, we are to inform the coaches that we are suspending the game and how it will work. We then inform them that we are going to shelter or out cars and suggest that they do the same. We then leave the field together.

I also check the weather before I leave home. If there are impending storms, I will check the radar on my cell phone just before my partner(s) and I lock up the cars. If something is coming, I inform the coaches when we get to the field and ask them to help us keep an eye out.

Now I still get arguments about daytime storms from coaches. "Yeah Blue, we heard the thunder but we didn't see any lightning so why are we stopping the game?" Even after I explain that lightning is what generates thunder and it's just too bright to see the lightning yet, they still ask "why are we stopping the game?"

1) if you see a BOLT, it's close enough to stop things. Period. (Heat lightning is something different, and the 30 second rule is good for that ... as stated above, 30 seconds is about 5 miles, and lightning can travel laterally for about that distance)
2) 10 minutes is DEFINITELY not long enough. 20 around here is the standard (25 in football, and no, I don't know why the difference). 30 to be safe is prudent.
3) BU has EQUAL responsibility to PU regarding stopping a game for lightning. PU has authority over whether you're waiting or packing it up ... but EITHER umpire should stop things - no one has 360 degree sight.
4) If Partner Deathwish doesn't want to get off the field, refer him to the article(s) on the Jr. High football team here in Texas 2 years ago that didn't leave the field when they saw lightning. Lightning struck the FIELD (not even a player), but killed several and injured many many more.

In Michigan, we recieved a memo from the state athletic association about lightning and thunder and how to handle them when they occur.

They said lightning is lightning and thunder is thunder. We have to stop the game for 30 minutes and wait. We must be lightning and thunder free during that 30 minutes or we have to keep resetting the 30 minutes each time either or is observed.

All of my supervisors have stated follow the policy or you will not be working for them anymore period.

I hasten to state that the OP from CanadaUmp6 has been made without reference to any rules or practice in Ontario. The issue of lightning has been of concern for a number of years and after a number of conversations with lawyers/insurers etc the OBA have adopted the 30/30 rule. This has been posted on the website and has been part of the communication with local organizations.
1. Lightning: Please remember, the baseball season is a prime time for thunder storms, so be aware of lightning and remember the 30-30 Rule.
o • 30-30 Rule:
Determine the threat of lightning in your area.
o • 30 Seconds:
Count the seconds between seeing lightning and hearing thunder. If this time is less than 30 seconds, lightning is still a potential threat. Seek shelter immediately.
o • 30 minutes:
After the last lightning flash, wait 30 minutes before leaving shelter. Half of all lightning deaths occur after the storm passes. Stay in a safe area until you are sure the threat has passed.
If an umpire in Ontario wishes to avoid liability they must follow this rule. So far as the OP’s statement that “The base umpire has nothing to say about weather or darkness. But I decided to follow his directions as he is crew chief”. I’m not sure what rule book this comes from, but certainly not from anywhere that I’m aware of anywhere in Canada or the USA (following the good neighbour :) policy).

Just my two cents worth….

I'm not sure where canadaump gets his information but where I am in Canada we use the 30 minute rule.

As soon as you see lightning you halt the game for 30 minutes at which point you reassess the situation and if it is still dangerous the game is suspended or called.

There is no such thing as heat lightning. It's lightning to far a way to hear the thunder as light travels faster than sound. Lightning can strike up to 30 miles away from the center of a storm. If lightning is seen, get the heck off the field. I had a Dixie Pre majors State Tourney gameback in 93 that I stopped because I saw lightning but heard no thunder. The Tournament Director tried to make me get the teams back on the field as he deemed it "heat lightning." I stood my ground and within 10 minutes we were in the midst of a micro burststorm along with a tornado warning. My Rule of thumb is I see lightning I get off the field. Better to be safe than sorry

This is an odd statement, considering that A) one causes the other and B) since the speed of sound and the speed of light are constants, you can relatively easily determine the distance between you and the lightning by counting the time to the thunder.

Like I said earlier - if you see a bolt, it's within your 7-mile sight line (the clouds you see right at the horizon, if you're in a flat area, is directly above ground that is 7 miles away). If you just see "a flash", it could VERY easily be reflected light through the clouds from quite a distance away - which is why the 30 second rule helps you. It could also be heat lightning (which has nothing to do with the type of lightning that strikes the ground), which produces that low-level rolling thunder sound.

Why would you say such a thing? What nonsense.

It's true that what is called "heat lightning" has nothing to do with temperature ... but there is such a thing - it refers to lightning that is far enough away that the light is reflected, refracted, etc enough to appear to be just one big area of light, instead of a bolt - and unless the thunderclap is within 30 seconds, it's pretty far away (could be 30-50 miles if conditions are right). The "rolling" sound you hear is actually the sound of the thunder rebounding between the clouds and ground before it reaches you, so you hear it in a wave of sound instead of a short burst.

He was responding toa "it's only heat lightning" and I don't think he meant it the way you seem to have taken it. He meant it really is lightning, not some harmless light in the sky as the "heat lightning" believers seem to think.

It may be reflected and refracted and far away but it is still lightning.

Agreed that "heat lightning" may be a misnomer, but as we were told at an NCAA meeting is that any lightning is dangerous. Lighting has been know to stike up to 30 miles away from a storm. So if you see it off in the distance, but hear no thunder, it should peek you interest and awareness of the impending situation

We have a weather radio and a SkyScan lightning detector. (If the cable provider was kinder we'd have the Weather Channel so we could see the radar). The radio has a really obnoxious alarm when storm warnings are issued. You have to listen to see if it's near you.

The SkyScan is set for 8-20 miles. If it goes off we clear the fields.

A Florida poster on eteamz said his park has a "pro" system that automatically sets off lightning sirens. The system also sounds an "all clear". It takes the human element out of the equation.

It doesn't take the human element out, since someone is still deciding to use the system and to follow its recommendations.

The system just adds a corporation to the list of people to sue when someone gets hurt.

For all I know, the thing works as advertised and minimizes risk; I'm just sayin. :cool:

I like the way you're thinking...I might have an associate position opening just for you in my firm. :D

The NOAA web site would seem to indicate that the 30/30 version of the ligtning safety rule IS NOT what they endorse.

The guideline published there is the "hear or see thunder, wait thirty minutes" rule.

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/overview.htm

See the last "bullet-pointed" item.

1. NOAA created the fist 30/30 rule
2. The last bullet provides the "ultimate" procedure, in the words of the local Weather Station supervisor. "The 30/30 plan is a practical and easy to remember procedure we recommend other associations use.

crowder,

If I wanted a science lesson, I would have emailed a local television station in my area and talked their weather person.

Plus, you can have either or. It just happened at my house not 48 hours ago before a storm blew through. There was just lightning for a while with no thunder. Then, there was no lightning, but thunder was heard.

You do not need one to have the other. This is an officiating forum and not a science class.

I was merely stating a statement that was posted on our state's athletic association website.

True enough, this is an officiating forum. However when one post such erroneous statements as you have, they should be corrected whether written on an officiating forum, science forum or the wall of a public bathroom.

Thunder is a sound made by lightning. Sometimes the lightning is too far away to hear the thunder. Sometimes the lightning is obscured and all you perceive is the thinder.

But you do indeed need to have one (lightning) to get the other (thunder).

Class dismissed.

The name of said firm wouldn't be Dewey, Cheatum and Howe would it?

According to mhsaa.com, you've violated their copyright. Please don't post copyrighted material to the forum - a link will do.

Here are you erroneous statements:

1. Plus, you can have either or.

2. You do not need one to have the other.

3. I was merely stating a statement that was posted on our state's athletic association website. (No where on that site do the first two statements reside.)

Ygtbsm!!
 

Hey all,

First point, I wouldn't get weather advise from a TV weather person EVER!! They get their information from REAL weather forecasters and observers. (Military, NWS, and/or NOAA)

Second, Lightning is caused by differently charged ions interacting with each other on a grand enough scale to cause a static discharge. That is what causes lightning and lightning follows the path of least resistance in determining where it goes. Since these particles CANNOT BE SEEN, there is no way to determine where the lightning will travel to. THAT is what make lightning so dangerous.

Generally speaking thunder will be heard between 4-6 seconds per mile of distance after the lightning occurs. Air temperature and relative humidity are major, but not the only, factors.

If you are wondering about my credibility, I spent 10 years in the USAF as a weather observer (what's going on now) and forecaster (what's going on now AND in the future). I did this in New Mexico, Alaska (Yes, There are thunderstorms there!), Illinois, Southern California, Persian Gulf, and last but not least, Mississippi.

The statement you made that I quoted in bold is wrong AND irresponsible.

LomUmp:cool:

Lightening is good
 

Lightening is a good indicator that you may be able to resume a game that has been suspended due to lightning. My experience has been that lightning is generally preceded by darkening. When the atmospheric disturbance moves away from the field, typically the lightning goes with it, and that is followed by lightening.

Of course, if the lightning is observed near dusk, it may be succeeded by darkening instead of lightening. In this case, darkening may be an indicator that the game can be resumed. That's only on fields with lights, though.

And if the field got an extreme soakening, it doesn't matter if lightning is followed by lightening, darkening, or whether there are lights. Field conditions will likely preclude resumption of play.

Thank you for enlightning us.

I looked all over the Baseball Ontario website and found nothing about a 30 minute rule.

Hmm, took me about 30 seconds to find it

http://www.baseballontario.com/Const...stitution.html

Why does that not surprise me?

Why does that not surprise me?

No it's not. There is no such thing as "heat lightning." What you mistakenly refer to as "heat lightning" is nothing but bolts of lightning hidden behind the clouds. What you see is the reflection of the light from such bolts. They are no less dangerous than bolts that are visible.

Do people realize how far lightning can travel? Case in point: Several years ago in an American Legion level game on a bright, sunny day, a second baseman in a north Chicago suburb was struck and killed by a lightning bolt that came from a cumulonimbus cloud 17 miles away. There were no clouds over or near the ball park. This lone thunderhead generated the lightning that killed this young man and seriously injured his friend, the first baseman.

Is this a multiple choice question?:D

Is that near Gregory?

Jurassic Troll wrote:
Thank you for enlightning us.

He contributed more than you ever have! And yes I get the pun. Good one.

Also, I am going to point out a rule that SDS, Garth, mbcrowder, SAump and ptmac are unaware of:

3.10 c:
The umpire-in-chief shall be the sole judge as to whether and when play shall be suspended during a game because of unsuitable weather conditions or the unfit condition of the playing field; as to whether and when the play shall be resumed after such suspension; and as to whether and when a game shall be terminated after such suspension. He shall not call the game until at least thirty minutes after he has suspended play. He may continue the suspension as long as he believes there is any chance to resume play.

They believed that the base umpire has a say in whether or not a game should be suspended due to inclimate weather, but they were ignorant to the rule book in this case.

You are reading the rule book but missing the acceptable practices, procedures and nuances of baseball. The users you list do know everything you know but their knowledge is not limited to your one weakly written book.
The rule book is not to be taken so literally as you think. It is only a small part of the story.
Pick your fights wisely. This thread is locked.