How long to wait to make call
 

Just had a base evaluation and everything was fine except was told that I make my obvious out call to fast.

Generally speaking if a runner is obviously thrown out at first I wait until the runner clears the base and then take a three or four seconds to then make the out call.

The evaluator wants me to wait until the BR is walking into the dugout before making the call. His rational is that if you wait 10 to 15 seconds on these calls then you will automatically wait the required 3 or 4 seconds on bang-bang plays.

I didn't say anything but to me waiting 15 seconds to make a call is simply stupid. It would be better if I didn't make any call then to stand there on the field and make the out call when the next batter steps into the batters box.

Comments?

If he's to be taken literally 10-15 seconds is way too long.

I was at the Cub cards game yesterday, Pop up behind second, easy out,
2nd base ump Never signaled. he was on the inside, I'm sure it was his call.
Has anyone else noticed no signals on easy pop ups?

Speaking to OP
Was your evaluator saying you're too quick on the the bangers?
If so, you need to do something to correct it, but I agree waiting 10-15 secs on no brainers is way too long and not helping your timing on close plays.

Good call on your part.

With 2 out and a runner coming in from third, I wonder what he expects F3 to do, make that throw home in case U1 saw "something", or hold onto the ball and wait, ... and wait.

There was one play with the ball in the dirt and I originally thought I saw the ball in the glove and was going to bang the runner out. As I was starting to stand up to call the out, I saw the ball behind F3's foot. I then quickly lifted both arms and signalled safe saying, "No catch." and then pointed at the loose ball.

The evaluator said that I was "way to early on the call" and need to work on timing. However, that was the only situation where he could point out an early call and there had to be 5 or 6 bang-bang plays that game.

I think evaluator feel they "have" to find something to complain about and timing is something that is so easy to pick on. Just as is being too close or far from the catcher behind the plate.

Everything your evaluator told you goes against what I was taught.

Umpires do not wait a pre-determined length of time, whether that's a given number of seconds, or some other benchmark (player returns to dugout, etc.).

You need to wait long enough to see everything relevant. On a routine play at 1B, for example, you need to get in position, hands on knees set, read the throw and adjust if necessary. As F3 fields the throw, watch the base and listen for the ball. Unless the runner beats the ball, look to see whether F3 has secure possession of the ball.

Make the call (in your head), then signal. Proper use of the eyes will determine your timing correctly.

CO: routine pop ups get no signal. The rule of thumb is: if the fielder catches it above his waist with no one else around, no signal.

Ohhhh, Canada.

What if his dugout is on the thirdbaseline? Hell, you could have a new batter up by then. In any case, 15 seconds in a freaking eternity when making a call.

3-4 seconds are required on a banger?

Watch the play, find the ball, make the call. I would never make it appear that I was "still thinking about it" for four seconds after a banger, unless I was in the mood to toss an assistant.;)

:D I always wait to make an obvious out call the time it would take to get a cold brewski from the table to my mouth on a 100 degree cloudless day in Miami.

[[/QUOTE]

B1 is taught to run out EVERTHING meaning run through the bag even if it's routione. Thereore, I have been taught to allow B1 that 'courtesy" and not signal anything until B1 clears the bag. He knows he's out but he should still run through the bag "just in case"

On bangers yes you wait approx 4 -5 seconds to make certain the ball isn't dropped etc.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=PeteBooth][Start your stop watch, ready? Now. 1.....2.....3.....4.....5

Wow. On a banger?

Watch the play, find the ball, make the call.

Tibear, who evaluates your evaluator?

My rule of thumb on routine out calls is to wait until I'm sure that F3 (or whoever) is touching the base and has complete control of the ball. At that point, the runner is generally pretty close to passing my position as he is well past the base. I never use any arbitrary, "one Mississippi" or any such artificial method.

This gives me the same timing on bangers. As soon as I determine that there is control of the baseball at the same time the base is touched (on force plays), that's when I make the call. Again, no artificially timing the call.

On bang-gang tag plays, the same principle applies. Wait until there is no possibility that the ball can come flying out of the glove, then make the call.

Thanks

In your experience is this accepted protocol at all levels?

JMHO,

I've been instructed to listen for the "Thwack" (for lack of a better term)of the ball hitting the glove and the "Thump" of the foot hitting the bag.

If "thump" comes before "thwack", I don't wait, I signal "Safe" immediately.

If "thwack" comes before "thump", I look up to see if the first baseman has possession of the ball, then make the appropriate call.

Again, JMHO.

CO ump's philosophy might be that everybody in the stadium knows that it's an out...so that's why they don't signal. Some will call you a smitty if you signal the ever so obvious in the game of baseball.

watch many BU at 1B...there are many, many times when everybody in the stadium knows that the runner is safe...often times they will not signal "safe"

If you know your evaluator personally, you will know if he is on a power trip or if he is being helpful (or trying to be helpful :D ). From this information, judge his evaluations.

Interesting question. I've had two base evaluations this year.

The first one I was docked because I "cheated" to B with two outs and runners on 2nd and 3rd or 3rd only. This last evaluation I was told that I wasn't going to get docked but I should cheat exactly as I was doing for the first evaluator.

When I questioned the second guy he said something to the effect of, "Yes, that is how the mechanics are written, but if you want to move up and work with everyone else around here you'll cheat to B with two outs."

Just goes to show you that the evaluations are completely personal to the individual evaluators and not judged based on some set criteria.

Last year at a tourney, I got "You are standing too far from the catcher" and "You are standing too close to the catcher" from separate evaluators on the same game. You're right - sometimes it's just so they have something to say.

I can't speak for all levels, but it works for me for HS and HS-age summer ball. Since it's pro instruction, I would think it would work for higher levels, but I don't have experience with that.

I was taught that all plays deserve a call. There may not be a need to include a verbal announcement, but a signal should be made even on the most routine of plays.


Tim.

Well,
 

"I was taught that all plays deserve a call."

Interesting.

I was taught (as example):

R1 stealing second base.

Throw arrives and R1 slides.

The ball is not caught by the covering infielder and is sitting on the ground.

I would be dinged on my college or high school evaluation if I made a "safe" call of any type.

We do not make calls when a fielder drops (not juggles) a ball. Proper timing stops us from making that call.

Also, if a runner is clearly safe at first base we do not give any type safe call. If we did we would get dinged.

Also on any normal fly ball the PU only says: "That's a catch" if it helps his base umpire who might be pivoting and hae his back to the play.

On a normal fly ball to the outfield (or an infielder that has gone out) and if a BU is inside we do not EVER give a physical "OUT" signal and hardly ever say "that's a catch" . . . (trouble ball are a another issue).

So we have been trained differently.

Regards,

Something tells me you are being evaluated to become a level 4 umpire in Ontario. Our level 4 program is a complete joke. They try and turn umpires into robots. Trying to build some kind of a timing mechanism into an umpire is just a way to further roboticize their mechanics. They should be allowing you to make your call as you see fit.

Thank goodness there is an association out there that does not require a loud "That's a catch!" call on every routine flyout or popup. It gets annoying after a while.

The base umpire should not have his back to the play anyways. The cardinal rule of umpiring is "eyes on the ball at all times". The pivot at first base may be one of the most over-rated mechanics out there. It makes it easier to lose sight of the ball, and is a broken ankle waiting to happen.

The training was pretty much the same on this side of the country. I'll also add on pick-off plays, no effort, no call.

Example: F3 takes a pick-of throw from F1 and doesn't bother to apply a tag, no call.

You're right, Tim. I need to backtrack and say all plays 'deserving' of a call should get a call. I'd get knicked pretty hard if I signaled safe with the ball lying 10 feet away from a bag.

Tim.

Yea, I agree, I think as a Base Umpire I should be allowed to stand behind first no matter what happens on the field. This way I never have to take my "eye" off the ball.

If the PU can get off his butt and watch for the other runners, NOT MY PROBLEM. I am only a BASE, Umpire. I should only have to cover one, at a time.

There is just NO WAY I am going to be caught doing fancy circles in the infield. Besides, if I should happen to fall and break my nails in front of all thoses spectator type people, OH MY GOD, it just gives me chills thinking about it, OH MY GOD.

If the ball's on the ground, there's no play. No play needs no call.

I don't signal obvious safes or obvious outs, calls that grandma from the stands could make.

On out calls that are somewhat close but still easy I give a somewhat easy, just above the waist fist out call. Likewise, for safes I give an easy safe call. No voice on either.

On bangers at any base I give an out or safe call quickly after I am convinced, and with gusto and a loud HE's OUT or SAFE voice call.

All?

In my opinion, it's making those obvious calls that will cause you to make errors on those calls that appear to be obvious, then for whatever reason, turn weird...then you end up making two calls or severely get yourself into deep doo-doo...remember, it's not our show out there...if everybody in the stands know that the guy caught the ball on the can-of-corn flyball to F8...they're not watching you anyway...however if that ball ricochets off of his glove because he closed it too soon, you've all of a sudden made two calls and you have to explain to the defensive rat why you called him out and now your changing your call...not saying you owe him an explanation...but now the other 50 fans at the game, who don't know the rules and weren't paying attention are now focusing on the rat who knows the right call, but it out there to put on a show...

bottom line...obvious call/no call...no signal from me..you guys can do your thing, but we have enough calls to make in our games...I'll only make the ones that need to be made.

On small fields, "A" is optional for us. Most umpires have chosen to eliminate it.

Wow jicecone you are funny. Good one.

But seriously, I never said an umpire shouldn't come into the infield. The best way to do it is to cut into the infield, peak over your right shoulder, but don't turn completely towards first base and don't pivot!

If you are old, fat, and over 50 like me, the safest and surest way is the way you describe here (almost). I still pivot when I have lots of time, like with a slower BR running. With speedy guys, I find myself fortunate to get 6 feet out on the grass before the BR hits the base.

If you are younger and in better shape, go ahead and come in and pivot. That's still the preferred mechanic. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please.

What are you peeking over your right shoulder for? Certainly not to see the BR touch first, unless you are a contortionist. For the non-pivot move, you run in looking at the ball over your right shoulder until you get on the grass, then peek over your left shoulder at the BR touching first. Then you cut an oblique angle off your left foot and run parallel to the grass line toward 2nd base.

For the pivot, the trick to not "falling on your butt" or "breaking your ankle," or any other excuse not to execute proper mechanics is to slow down as you come to your pivot, and execute the move while under control at all times. Don't just wildly run full speed and attempt to do some fancy pirouette. That's how you get hurt. Stop and plant the right foot, take a drop step with the left, pivot smoothly, watch the BR touch or not touch, then eyes back to the ball.

From this point, you are in perfect position to either continue ahead of the runner toward 2nd, or return back on a neat little 45 degree angle toward the edge of the cutout to take the runner back into 1st base.

Actually, once that ball is hit out of the infield I can care less about it unless I go out for a catch/no catch. I am hustling into the infield for two reason's: 1. See the touch at first. 2. Be ready for the runner if they advance to other bases. My partner will let me know if it is a catch or no catch and by then I will direct my attention to the location of the ball if I need to. (Two Man)

There is no reason both umpires have to have there eye on the ball at all times, at the same time.

If you are in danger of getting hurt on a pivot, you're clearly doing it wrong. OTOH, why are you pivoting from the coaches' box anyway, canadacoach?

Most pivot injuries come from poor field conditions not the athletic inabilities of the pivoter.

I wondered. :rolleyes:

Not if you check the field first. Never happened to me, or to anyone working for me or with me.

The number or umpires who check the field are few and far between. Field conditions change.

Maybe true where you are fitump, but I ALWAYS check, and anyone who works for me does as well. Exceptions might be the occasional game after a timed game in a tourney that ran long, but that's rare, and I USUALLY check 3 spots even in those games - and my pivot point is one of them (assuming I'm BU or U1).

Bully for you. I believe every word. All the way up the RF line? How about short RF where you run out on fly balls? Field conditions change, do you check the field before every inning? Why not? Field conditions change. You also oversee your partner to make certain he checks the field? How fun are you to work with? Tell you what, you come waltzing over to tell me to check the field, you better bring more with you than that crappy smirk on your face with you, Chowder.

I'm not surprised at all at the snarkiness you've replied with, fit ...

But I am surprised this is the issue you'd choose to be snarky about.

Doesn't EVERYONE check their fields? It's expected in ANY area I've worked, not just the one I'm responsible for.

And yes ... assuming it's a normal game and I'm there 45 minutes ahead of time (which is normal around here), I do check the ENTIRE field. I'm not just checking for me ... but for everyone. Occasionally we're able to point out something to someone before gametime, where it can be addressed (pothole, or dry cracked earth (happens in Texas a lot - not this year so much), hole in a fence, etc).

Do I "oversee my partner"? No - I "oversee" all of the umpires in my area, and they know that this is a priority - not just for me, for ALL umpires.

If I ever find you working for me, and you display this kind of disdain for what I think is the very basics of our responsibilities, I don't think I'd be worrying about you checking fields much longer - you'd not be on the schedule for long. If I'm working in someone else's area, and I find an umpire with your attitude, no ... I'm not going to TELL you to do it - I'm going to ask you if you're coming with me though (of course .. you probably showed up with 5 minutes to go before gametime, and have to run to your car for your hat ... so I would have already checked the field for you).

(PS - Football officials do this to ... even on turf ... and that field is considerably larger)

You are in serious need of training.

Most of my training was like Tim_c's. Most of the time I am loud because I have hearing loss.

I was taught by Baseball Ontario to pivot on my left foot. Left, right, left is the way they teach it in Canada. Now I see why I had so many problems with it and will go to pivoting with the right foot as you suggested.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You didn't look that big in your picture at ABUA.;) To a certain degree, I understand the challenges of intense exercise and proper nutrition as I try to put on muscle. I'm 5'5 and 135 freakin pounds!

Ooooooo internet tough guy! I have my doubts about the umpiring abilities of anyone who needs to boost his ego online.

While I like the fact that you come well ahead of time and are prepared, it is up to the grounds keepers or city crew to check the field for holes. What if you were to come across a hole down the right field line, and there was no dirt available to get it filled? I certainly hope that you would not cancel a ballgame for something as trivial as this.

Not really, just in need of a pivot move that works, which Steve has pointed out to me.

So you think with your limited experience you are ready to parcel mechanics advice now that someone explained a pivot moved? So, now you everything?

Not only are you in serious need of training, you are in serious need of a visit to reality.

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Not really, just in need of a pivot move that works, which Steve has pointed out to me.
Read, repeat, yawn.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=9178

OK, here's a FYI, the world is unlike ChowerLand, no, most umpires don't have time to check fields especially when the teams are warming up on them? Unlike you, I can't get to a field 3/4 to an hour beforehand. I work.

Note word above.....WORK.

Btw, you check all the way up the RF line? How about short RF where you run out on fly balls? Field conditions change, do you check the field before every inning?Why not? Field conditions change. ENTIRE field? No one believes that, why lie?


But you force your partner to do a second field review after you have done the ENTIRE field yourself? Whatatever for? Don't you trust your own judgment? Or do you get your jollies pushing your weight around?


-Burp-:D

Chowder, when you WORK or have family or something else to do other than umpiring, getting to the ballpark on time is an issue. Now you know.

You, as the umpire, are responsible once the game starts. If you knowingly allowed a game to be played when there are holes in the field you will be held liable if somebody is injured. I don't consider risking my house a 'trivial' issue.

You don't have him on ignore yet? That's odd.

Sage advice. Tempered with your comment on what you have to lose. Hoping there is insurance to buffer that potential loss.

Tim, the real problem is that I am much more the umpire than damn near all of your clique here. That's what really bothers you and your forum friends. If I were you and your friends, I would react the same way to Donovan fitump56and to me. You and the others have years invested in dominatiing this forum, most of it with honest intent. The dishonesty of your presence comes whenever your honesty, or lack of it, is challenged. Your agenda fast forwards into control freak mode. The rubberized weapons used are childish attempts to degrade posters who don't smoke in the boys bathrooms with your clique.

The really, truly sad part of your absurd exercise is that The Clique will drag down any attempts to introduce any non-Clique concepts, why are you so threatened?

Someone has to say this to you (plural) so that you can ignore it; life is much more pleasurable when you allow for the expression, not the suppression, of ideas. The mark of an educated umpire is the openness of his mind.

There, you have got your FYI, proceed normally, I meant abnormally, of course.:(

Uh, that picture was taken in 1990. I wasn't over 50 or fat then. I was 34 and had a 32 waist.

LOL... yeah... I remember those days myself. I even had less of a forehead then to! :D

Yep, I remember back in the good old day when I was in shape:

Picture not available due to overcomplication.

Hmmm!
Fitump - Interested Ump......
Fitump - Interested Ump......
Fitump - Interested Ump......

IGNORE list has a new name!