obstruction on a pickoff ?
 

hi,
situation :
F3 is standing right infront of 1stbase, i mean in the line between 1st and 2nd when the pitcher comes to set. the basecoach calls for time and says "he can't stay there cause my runner has to dive "around" F3 on a pickoff". is there a rule that prohibits F3 from standing in the direct line between 1st and 2nd or would this be obstruction and i send the runner to 2ndbase ?

F3 can stand where ever he wants. It's not obsruction until R1 is illegally hindered in his base running. So far, all we have is R1 taking (or at least being allowed to take) the same lead he'd take if F3 were playing "normally."

No rule prevents F3 from standing where he is.

Yes, there is potential OBS on a pickoff play or on R1's advance to 2B. Let the player(s) make the mistakes and then react.

Ace

If he is blocking the base during the pickoff attempt, isn't that considered "in the act of making a play." We allow catchers to do it at the plate so why not a first baseman?

A play has to be imminent at the plate for a catcher to be able to block the plate without the ball. That generally means the thrown ball is in fllight and nearly at the plate, over the dirt cutout part is generally considered imminent since the cutout is about 13' in diameter.

Likewise at 1B a play would have to be imminent. If F3 is blocking the bag when the pitcher starts to make a move then a play is not imminent because the ball hasn't even been thrown yet. So it's obstruction if the runner can't get to the bag.

But the if the contact doesn't happen until the ball is nearly to the base then we have an immenent play. If a catcher is standing in the baseline while the ball is at the cutoff man of course it's obstruction but we don't have obstruction unless the runner is obstructed. By the time the pitcher makes his move and the starts coming back to first, the 1B is already in the act of making the play. Why is it now obstruction?

Part of this depends on the rules set being used. In LL (iirc), NCAA and FED (starting next year) F3 (and any fielder) must have the ball before he can block the base (yeah -- I know that's not the exact wording).

In pure OBR, and FED this year, a play must be imminent. That's generally interpreted as the ball being in flight. So, R1 could be obstructed while F1 is making a pick-off if the obstruction happens before the ball is released.

lets say the pitcher steps off very quick and fakes a throw to 1b . the runner dives back and into F3 and R1 CANNOT reach the base cause F3 blocks it intentional/unintentional. is this obstruction ? i mean F1 becomes a regular fielder and so he just fakes a throw to 1b.....
obstruction R1 -> 2nd base ?

I vote for: If there's no throw there is no play so there is no obstruction.

I agree! All this "what if" stuff is ridiculous!

Hey Oz, quit stuttering.

That would be obstruction since there is no play. In FED you send him to 2B.

If there is no play ... there is nothing to obstruct. Fielder/runner contact is not necessarily anything.

We had a server/power issue at work. I was down most of the day so I never saw the multiple posts. I deleted them sssssoo it ddddidn't lllllllllook like I was sssssstttttuddering.

RRRRRRRReggggards!

What about ball hit to the outfiled, BR runs into F3? That's obstruction...no play being made on the runner -OR- R2 runs into F5 on a grounder to the right side - same thing here.

OBR has 2 different situations - OBS without play being made on the runner, you wait for play to end, then enforce the OBS if needed. OBS while play is being made - kill it immediately and enforce. FED says kill it regardless of type/time of OBS.

Throw or not you can have OBS on the pick off. It's a judgment as to whether or not F3 has the "right" to block the bag.

We're addressing the original situation.

Is there a pick-off absent a pick-off? And what is the sound of one hand clapping?

I realize that - the comment was made that without a play you have no obstruction - I was simply pointing out that OBS is possible without a play.



To the first question - I concede, you don't have a "pick off" without a "pick off" - you can have a pick off attempt (as it were) w/o a throw - and thus have OBS and no play.

To the second question - ever hear the wind blow? Same sound.

Well said, Sir (suck up, suck up).

Did you not mean "after" release? Regardless, there is solid argument under certain rulesets, especially those where the emphasis is on player's safety, that an obvious blocking position should be handled by the umpire by relating the positioning to OBS, in either a discreet ot indirect way, that this blocking will be considered OBS.

saw this situation during the cubs-cardinals game last night.
little roller down the 1stbase line, the pitcher runs toward the line and picked the ball up when it was foul and almost collides with BR.

now whats the ruling if the pitcher collides with the runner and the ball rolles (untouched) foul.

is the pitcher in the act of fielding oder is he simply chasing the ball ? does it makes a difference if obstruction occurs with a fair/foul ball ?

could this be obstroction although the ball was rolling foul ?

ManInBlue

You could have the potential for obstruction anytime. Obstruction does not occur until the runner is prevented or hindered by the defense.


Here's what Rich Ives is referring to:

R1 being held by F3, R1 leading off. F3 is blocking the entire path back to 1st. Now as long as there is no attempt to retire R1, the two can stand like that all day and nothing is wrong! But, the minute F1 or F2 throw the ball to F3 and R1 is unable to get back because of F3's position, that would be the obstruction.

The original stitch stated that the coach was crying for an obstruction call when there was no effort to retire R1.

Regards

First off, the fielder is protected on a batted ball, so you wouldn't have obstruction here in any case, the issue would be whether the BR has interfered.

But now let me ask you: how has the BR interfered if the ball is foul? Exactly what has the BR hindered by making contact with F1 on a rolling ball that is clearly foul?

Naturally, in other cases (pop foul or ball rolling on the line, for instance) interference IS possible.

OSB on a pickoff/ next year?
 

:confused: Bob, are you saying that next year FED rules will change the imminent to having possession, similar to FP softball?

@mbyron:
the ball was fair untill F1 got to the line, so it was juuust foul when it stopped rolling. F1 bend over to pick up the ball when BR passed him on his way to 1b.
i thought "chasing" a ball is no part of "fielding a ball" which makes the fielder "untouchable". so if F1 makes contact with BR at the line its just a foulball ?

Yes on the change, but "I don't know" (or care) on the similarity to FP softball.

"Chasing" refers to a ball that has been deflected. If F1 was the protected fielder, then he's allowed to move to field the ball. He can't be guilty of obstruction (absent some third-world play). If the contact prevented F1 from fielding the fair ball, then it's interference. If the ball was going to be foul regardless of the contact, then it's nothing (again, absent some intent / malicious contact, etc.)

It doesn't matter if the ball eventually goes foul, the key is when contact was made was F1 the protected fielder and was the ball fair at contact?
If the answers are yes then most likely you have inteference. There could be some judgement as to whether F1 could have reached the ball before it went foul but I would give much leeway in this sitch to F1.

Can't argue with that. Actually didn't notice who had posted the reply. Rich knows his stuff. That explaination clears up his meaning nicely.

My response was more geared toward having some form of effort, but not necessarily a throw. - without ANY effort - I agree completely. there's nothing wrong with just standing there.