Voluntary Release Play...
 

I'm in B, runners on 1st and 3rd. Double steal. F6 makes a good tag on R1 and then turns to face towards 3rd base so he can quickly throw home if neccessary.

I see a good tag, a bit of possession, and start to come up from my set with an OUT call. However, the next thing I see is the ball in the legs of the runner who is lying on the ground. I call SAFE emphatically and point at the ground. Here comes manager and assisstant to the foul line to yell (thats a whole different story but I'm convinced that no umpire in my association puts assistants in their place).

They want me to go to PU for help (yelling at me from the foul line), saying the drop was on the transfer (I don't care about the assisstant but the manager wanted it). I simply shake my head, that I'm not going for help. My partner talks them off the field, while I'm simply staring at the manager from my position.

I was looking at F6's back when his hands started to come together. I never saw the ball come out of his glove at any point, I just saw it rolling on the ground. My other piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come "flying out", as it typically does when a ball is dropped on a transfer.

So, given this information (or lack of information), would you call out or safe? Also, would you go to your partner for help on a play that is right in front of you when asked?

I think I may have missed it, but I had no view of it, either way.

Thanks.

I would think if it was dropped on the pull, you would have seen it come loose. Of course they are going to try to get an out, that goes in thier favor.

From what you describe "when his hands started to come together"... followed by "saw it rolling on the ground", sounds like a SAFE to me.

And I would NEVER ask for PU help on a play at 2B right in front of me.

Remember that the fielder's need to make a quick play elsewhere is no reason to rush your call. The runner's just as out or safe whether you call it fast or slow, and if you get the timing right chances are that you'll see this play correctly.

Nobody here can tell you whether the runner was out or safe. Learn from the experience and you'll be better next time.

And, I would never go to partner on this call.

I guess my real question is, in regard to voluntary release... can you call what you don't see?

I never saw the hands come together and never saw voluntary release, so can I call it? Where does the "benefit of the doubt" go in this situation?

No view = ask partner.

I understood your question, but I was trying to look at the larger picture. Why is there any "doubt" in this situation? Presumably because you were moving ahead of the play and not focused on what you should have been seeing.

You saw a "bit of possession" and then the ball on the ground? How did that happen? You missed something crucial here, and there should be no "benefit of the doubt" in this situation.

But perhaps your question is: how to handle the mistake? Make the best call you can given what you saw. Often that's the expected call: if the ball's on the ground when the dust settled, how are you going to call that runner out? You can't sell the "dropped on transfer" because you didn't see it.

Don't call what you don't see, but make sure you see the whole play next time.

No way do you go to your partner on this play.

Read the OP, what is your partner looking at? He is watching the runner on 3rd not your tag play at 2nd. I've got an out at 2nd, you've got to demonstrate some control and voluntary release on the tag play. The ball is on the ground, no control or voluntary release or the ball wouldn't be on the ground.

It's up to the fielder to demonstrate a legal tag. He didn't. Safe.

What does "bit of possession" mean" ? Either the fielder demonstrated possession or he didn't and that's your judgement.

Sounds like you didn't "allow the entire" play to go to it's conclusion. From the "strict" reading of what happened, I have a Safe call. Also, did you take your eyes off the play at any time?

Pete Booth

I didn't take my eyes off the play, which is the only reason I saw the ball on the ground in the first place.

The problem was I was in B and as the fielder pivoted to make a potential throw home I was looking at his back. Therefore, if and when his hands came together, and the ball was being transferred, I would have missed it. To me it seemed odd that I would have that happen, and never see the ball on its way to the ground, unless his legs were blocking me out of that.

My last piece of evidence was that the ball didn't come flying out, as it typically does on a transfer.

All my evidence was completely circumstantial, because I never saw the ball come of the glove in the first place, or knew when it happened (I know I first saw it on the ground when the fielder had already pivoted to make a throw home).

I guess maybe its just a pitfall of a 2 man system, but I don't feel confident going to bed chalking up that excuse.

Perhaps thats the best tiebreaker in this situation... (sigh). I feel bad that I had nothing else to go on, but I kept my eyes on the whole play...

Your only problem was timing. Make sure you know where the ball is before making the call.

Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.

He clearly said he had "no view" of the play.

No view = ask partner. I don't see why not.

Know the feeling. :(

The problem wasn't timing, my problem was literally not seeing the play. It wasn't that I had my mind made up before I had processed it all, its that my eyes were literally incapable of seeing part of the play.

If it makes you feel better he told me in the parking lot that he had no view of it and had already turned to watch R3's break from home.

A 4 man system would not be any better because you would still be in the same spot with the same view. From what you have described I have a drop, SAFE. Stop agonizing over it...

In four man, U2 would be closer to the play. They can also work inside at a deep "C". I think the whole problem centers from being in "B" with a R1 and R3.

It happens. X-ray goggles aren't standard umpiring gear.

Just don't make it a habit.:D

Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.

He clearly said he had "no view" of the play.

No view = ask partner. I don't see why not.

But you didn't know that until after the game. The guys I work with, if they had a different call, a glance or a hand sign, me to partner or partner to me, we would be on the same page immediately. You may not have that luxury.

Four magic words if you're unsure - SHOW ME THE BALL

Hogwash. You still can't see through a player regardless of shallow B vs deep C (assuming U2 would be in deep C vs. deep B).

While I agree you can't see through a player, in *this particular play* the infielder turned toward "C" to make the throw (as would most middle infielders since most are right handed). An umpire in C would have a better view of *this play* than would an umpire in B.

At some point, umpires are going to get blocked out, so we need to move to get the best angle for the play that happens. Can't always do it.

Exactly!!

Especially on a steal, if I have any doubt as to where the ball is, I immediately yell, "Show me the ball!!". If the defence raises their glove with the ball then I have an out otherwise save.

The beauty of this is that it tells both benches that I saw the play and have an out but only if the defensive player maintained control of the ball.

This is the exact reason I am moving twards the top of the mound cutout on a ball hit in the infield. A couple of steps in , pivot and you have a great view. Staying in the "B", and depending how close you are to the infield grassline, will get you into this type of trouble. Go to the mound and adjust accordingly. This has worked for me. Not being locked into one spot.

But he wasn't unsure--the ball was clearly on the ground. The only question is how it got there, and asking the fielder to SHOW ME THE BALL doesn't help at this point.

Personally, if I didn't know how the ball got to the ground, safe is the only call I can make.

The OP was a double-steal situation, not a hit in the infield.

In a 2 person system we cannot be everywhere but in the future, try experimenting with the "C" position. I know this all depends upon the protocol that is followed in one's area but from my experience, you get a much better look on plays such as yours and in addition steal attempts as well. You are less prone to get 'blocked out" by a fielder.

The contra to this is "what about the pick-off attempt by F1 from C. IMO, you can still get a good angle on the pick-off from "C". Therefore, if possible experiment with "C" and see if you get a "better look" on these type plays. Also, for the most part summer ball should be about trying new things either a new plate stance or a change in mechanics etc.

Pete Booth

Not to bash Tuss on this, I think we've all done something similar at some point, but from his own words he started to signal 'safe' but then saw the ball on the ground. He wasn't 'unsure', he was simply wrong.

Timing, timing, timing. See the ball. If you don't see it ask for it. The extra second or two makes all the difference in the world. One play/one call. If the fielder can't produce the ball you signal safe and sell it, if needed, by stating that the fielder does not have possession of the ball.

Because your partner has a job to do on this play, and it's not to provide backup to you ... it's to watch the base-touch on the other runner and prepare for a possible play there.

If partner saw anything he could add to your call, then he wasn't doing his job. Don't know about you, but I make the assumption that my partner is doing his job. Bringing this one to him is frankly an insult to his abilities, and puts doubt into everyone else's minds about YOUR abilities. Stick with the call on this one.

He did have a view of the play - he just didn't see the ball - if the fielder dropped in transfer how could the coach see that anyway - he's 100 feet away.

Ignore the coach and make the call. Bob has the right viewpoint as far as terminology.

As far as the second part of the post above, nothing needs to be said as it makes no sense at all.

Bottomline, its not my job to call strikes 90 feet away and its not PU's job to make a call at second base that he wasn't looking at anyway.

Thanks
David

So ... you guys are going to start giving fielders direction about showing you the ball when they are in the middle of trying to initiate another play? Egads, surely not. On one like this, the umpire merely needs to wait.

The only person that said anything about seeing through a player was you. In four man, you are naturally closer or able to get a better angle. It doesn't matter whether you're in B or C. It may have made a difference. I would like to think you would have gotten the view needed in the C position, instead of B, in two man though.

We're arguing the same point.

I suppose you forgot the four little magic words. Read post #22 for a refresher.

I agree with those who state that working in 'C' in this situation gives you better angles. It also gives you more options for adjustment for plays like this where you get screened.

As far as the pick off at 1b, you can quickly gain 2 or 3 steps moving toward the working area behind the mound and get a very good angle toward 1st.

PWL, I know exactly what I wrote. Tell me where I'm incorrect.

Who is PWL? The only, and I repeat only time, I would use the magic words is when there is a tag play and I need the fielder to bring his glove up to show he has possession of the ball. Haven't had to use them as my timing and eyesight hasn't failed me yet.

What do the words, "Show me the ball" have to do with a catch and voluntary release. They mean the fielder has possession or not. Sounds as if Tuss got the call right if you don't see a voluntary release. Coaches want the call to go in their favor. They lost an out. What else do expect them to do?

You can move 2-3 steps toward 1B on a pickoff? D*mn the pickoff moves are slow in your area...

Obviously, I wait until the play is over before asking for the ball. When I said immediately, I implied immediately after the play is over. If F4 jumps up and then throws the ball somewhere else, I don't need to ask for the ball now do I??

You ask for the ball when the play has ended and you're not sure where the ball is.

So what in the world does this have to do with the OP then?

With respect to asking to see the ball, I was responding to another post.

In the OP, I think everyone agrees that you need to wait a couple of seconds to verify where the ball is and since the umpire SAW the ball rolling on the ground this was an easy call.

They aren't big steps!!! Don't you try to gain a little ground on pick-offs? Once you read the F1's move toward first you can get at least one good step toward the 45 foot line to get a better angle to 1st.

With the play described in the OP, i.e., a tag being made at 2B and a subsequent attempt to throw home to retire R3, I would be looking, to an extent, to see if the fielder that applied the tag was looking more like he was actually making the throw home (ball lost on transfer), or if he started coming up to throw and then went back for the ball (ball lost on the tag). This motion is something that you can read even if the fielder has blocked your exact view of the baseball. It is not the only evidence I would consider, but it is a piece of the equation.

OK, one last tims, specifically quoting the OP who himslef has said this 3X in this thread.

"The problem wasn't timing, my problem was literally not seeing the play. It wasn't that I had my mind made up before I had processed it all, its that my eyes were literally incapable of seeing part of the play."

Never said you should be concerned about the coach just no view = ask partner.

Originally Posted by fitump56
Originally Posted by fitump56
No view = ask partner.

He clearly said he had "no view" of the play.

No view = ask partner. I don't see why not.

What if he wasn't doing that? Are you willing to get a call wrong because you don't want to at least attempt to get your partner's input?

I make no assumptions whatsoever and the fact he may have other responsibilities does not mean he couldn't have looked my way.

BS, take your ego and partner's and leave then at the gate to the field. The insult is in not doing so.

Thanks fitump, for telling what I did was wrong by not going to my partner on this play. If mcrowder's opinion didn't mean enough to me (which it does), your opinion opposite of his does double, which means I not only did correct once, but twice.

-Tuss

Not sure what all that above means except to say that many posters were repeatedly attempting to claim that you had a view. You repeatedly claimed you didn't. Them's the facts, Jacts.

Wrong not going to your partner? That's up to you. For me? no view = ask partner.

I think B is much better in this situation.
In B F6 is facing you, ball is between you and f6.
In C f6 can easily get body betwwen you and ball. In fact a good f6 will block you out if the throw is going to beat r1.
In the OP f6 would have staightened up after the tag, turned inside toward home preparing to throw. That turn to the inside would be a perfect view from b. If F6 had the ball at that point Tuss would have very easily seen the voluntary release.
The only issue on this play is timing not positioning.