Pre Game Discussions
 

Originally Posted by mbyron
As BU I will make a call on a half-swing without being asked only when:

1. PU does not immediately say he went, and
2. he went, and
3. he can run to 1B (strike 3 with 1B not occupied or 2 outs).

If any of these conditions is not met, I wait until PU asks me.

I decided to count the number of pre game discussions that not only these two posters admit to but several others. The time consumed by all these pre-game discussions is hours.

I am sure that many who do not work or have very flexible work schedules can hustle out to their local park for the 1730 or 1800 start and have time to make the ride, dress and hold these pre game discussions. Long pre game discussions.

Here's a fact. Most umpires are happy to work a full day and make the start time..on time. The idea that we have all these free minutes/hours to get to the game, get ready for the game and to have these pre game discussions is absurd.

I work with the same group of people all the time. I can count on one hand the number of games I've worked with someone other than my core 4-5 guys.

Our pregame discussion has been going on since 2002. On the way to the park, we usually discuss where we're going AFTER the game :)

my .02
 

I am fortunate to be able to work the majority of my games with my regular partner....we have partnered up for about 7 years now.......our pregame conversation (and we ALWAYS have it) may last less than a minute, but which ever one of us has the plate that night will hold it.....

With other/infrequent partners, I make time to hold a pregame........it might be brief, But I am going to hit my list of hot points and get some confidence that we are on the same page.

If you have time to change, you have time to have a pregame. When you work with those core partners it may be as short as 15 seconds. My pregame is this when I'm PU. It takes about 5 mins.

1) I'll rotate up to third with R1.
2) When I rotate I'll wait until you get into position, then I'll rotate back to mine.
3) I'll always have your help on swipe tags and pulled feet at first
4) I'm coming to you no matter where you are on checked swings, RHB or LHB.
5) Kill anything at my feet.
6) If you go out from A, I'll rotate up. Will you come back to the plate?
7) I'll help you on rundowns if there are no preceeding runners, and holler at you when I'm there.

I would go over catch/no catch stuff, but some of the people I end up working with its a challenge to get the 7 points above across. Also, when I'm BU, sometimes I have to ask my partner these points because he doesn't seem to intent on having a pregame.

Is that an efficiant pregame or is there something needed to be added that I miss?

I agree that it needn't take too long. I always try to cover "the second play in the infield" (BU or PU?)

Someone ( ;) ) once wrote a really good article on this site (iirc) about what to cover in a pre-game -- the 5-7 "critical" items and the 5-7 "nice to have items).

That said, some conferences, especially at the higher levels, require a longer pre-game before the first game of a series.

Hmmm,
 

I seldom work with the same partner. I get with the same partner maybe three times a season.

For pre-game conference we teach in our state clinics a 30 minute conference with all points, a 15 minute conference with 6 critical issues, and (sadly) the five minute (as we walk to the field conference while late arriving partner is tucking in shirt) conference that covers a surface deep reveiw of three critical areas.

BTW, for playoff umpires we required a one hour pre-game conference which includes a mandatory walk around the field in street clothes done at check in time with the game managment.

Regards,

This is the same for here, except we only walk the field if we are unfamiliar with it. Most of our time is spent reviewing 3 (or 4) man mechanics.

You're very fortunate but the remaining 95% +/- of umpires are not. Which is my point about Pre Game and how so many on the Forum preach "this (issue, mechanic, rule, etc) <INSERT etc mechanic, issue,>can or should be covered in Pre Game."

It's BS and totally out of touch with reality.

What do you recommend be covered at a minimum during a pre-game?


Tim.

What are your hotpoints and how much time do they take? What are your partners hot points and how much time do they take?

I have none.

Fitty, you don't have a pre-game meeting with your partner(s)? Hmmmm...

I'm confused. You don't have a pre-game when you are working with a partner with whom you've never (or rarely) worked? Wow.

Here's a chance for you to make a difference and improive the quality of umpiring in your area. Take the lead on this and have a pre-game. Even during the walk to the field you can cover a few points.

I personally think he's jerking our chains...and rendering his input insignificant in the process.

Now I've heard everything. YGTBSM. You don't have a pre-game talk with a new partner? How do you know that you are both on the same page? I can easily envision you both standing at 3rd base making different calls.

Even with guys I've worked many times with, we at least go over the essential coverages just to be sure.

I really hate trying to initiate a pre-game discussion, only to have my partner say something like, "I know what I'm supposed to do, and where I'm supposed to be, so I don't need to talk about it." These are the first guys to end up in the wrong place doing the wrong thing. Happens every time.:mad:

:mad: I've had that happen more than once and we both looked stupid and both of us get yelled at.

There isn't much point to having a pregame mechanics and positioning discussion when you're only working a 2 man system. First to third rotation, and going out on a flyball are the only 2 things to go over, and everyone knows them anyways. In my city we have a lot of partners showing up 7 minutes before game time. I always try to show up a half hour before the game, but if there is no umpire's room there is no way I am going to loiter around the area before my game. They can provide an umpire's room for me, and only then will I show up early.

I don't know about other areas, but 99% of the fields we work on around here have no umpire 'room'. There are bathrooms, restrooms, and your car. We also bring our lawn chairs and find a shady spot and relax and have our pre-game. My partner or I or maybe both of us will bring a cooler and have a cold pop after the game while we change. I have only done two games where we had an official 'umpire' dressing room.

Canadaump, there are many more points to briefly discuss prior to a game. Of the two you mentioned, how many times have you seen those seemingly simple things botched up?

An adequate pre-game with a new partner for 2 man mechanics should take no longer then 15 minutes, and can be accomplished while the plate person is suiting up. If you have more time, you can take more time.

Varsity FED game earlier this year.

R1, BU in B. I have the plate. Batter hits a sinking line drive to right center field. F8 and F9 converge on the ball. F9 dives in an attempt to make the catch. BU watches the play and then turns and points to me.

Did I mention that he first appeared as I was calling the managers out for the plate conference?

It's quite apparent from watching other games and listening to the stories some people tell that does not know the proper mechanics.

Really?

Who has the second play in the infield, BU or PU?
Who covers third when R2 (only) tags up on a fly? What if it's R1 and R2?

If PU goes to third and the ball gets away, who covers home?

Who takes BR into second when, with no runners on a ground ball to an infielder is thrown past first?

Who takes BR to third on a triple?

Where is the delineation between PU and BU on a ground ball down the line toward first (who has the fair / foul call when)?

etc.


And, yes, there are "standard" answers to some or al of thes in almost all areas. Still, their covered in almost every pre-game, even at the college level.

Not often and certainly not to cover the dozens of topics that are frequently mentioned here. In 5 minutes of pre-game. Most of what has been posted in this thread is not about meetings, it's about what a poster has to say to a partner. Rare (is there?) a post that talks about what partners want to talk about.

I fall outside of the typical example, I don't have a lot of partners. Most umpires in the Real World (the one that exists outside this highly segregated universe of FO.com) have lots of partners. Unless you are one that likes to have "meetings" where you talk and your partner sits in awe and great adulation of your officiating and verbal skills, then how is one to know what the agenda is for a real discussion?

Going to disagree, there are tons of things (new rules, applying them, local rule interps...) to talk about.

I have never seen an umpire's room. The 7 minutes before? Typical. Most umpires are busting their asps to get to the ballpark for an 1800 when they got off real work at 1700..or later.

Which is why all these smug retorts "you should have gotten this squared away in pre-game" I see on this Forum is a bunch of unrealistic BS. Just another method of many posters here to undercut the real umpire and his real issues.

Okay I'm going to try to answer those questions that you posted just to see if I know where I am going.

1) What do you mean by second play in the infield? Second play by an infielder?
2) Depends on where the ball is hit. Ball pulling left or right fielder to the line- base ump watches the tag up and takes the runner to third. Ball not pulling them to the line- plate ump takes the runner to third, and base ump covers home.
4) Plate umpire. This is actually something I should go over with my plate partners, because often I find myself behind the baseline after an overthrow because I was positioning myself for a grounder.
5) Base umpire. I have a lot of partners that want to look fancy, so they take the play at third, but I prefer to keep it simple.
6) Plate ump has all fair/foul calls, unless the base umpire stays out with nobody on, then he makes the fair/foul call and the plate umpire leaves home plate to the third base side and takes any play at second or third. Base umpire runs his *** all the way back to home to make the call at the plate if the batter tries for an inside the park homer.

...

Reread this and honestly think whether you need to have a pregame or not. I would say you have missed something in number 6. You yourself point out in #5 that some umpires "like to look fancy". Seems as though that should be discussed in the pregame as well. #4 you admit to yourself that you should be going over things with your partner.

Seems to me there is a very good point of having a pregame meeting with you or any partner I'd have, because these are things we need to work out before we step on the field.

Do you think a 5 minute pre-game is going to educate this umpire out of this gross mistake? I don't. He is clearly short on many major mechanical functions, 5 minutes isn't going to change much of anything.

Canadaump6, I think you missed the point of Bob's post. He wasn't quizzing YOU to test your knowledge, he was bringing out some situations that might occur in 2 man that can be butchered if both partners are out of synch.

"Okay I'm going to try to answer those questions that you posted just to see if I know where I am going." It really doesn't matter where you are going, where is your partner going?

Good enough answers, but at least 4 and 5 require discussion, and some parts of the others are "different" from how I would do them. So, if we were working together, then we'd better have a pregame so we know how these things are being covered. That's the point.

As Simon said to Melvin, "The best thing you have going is your willingess to humiliate yourself."

WOW.....may I suggest the purchase of a Red Book!! Better yet, attend a Desert or Winter Classic!!:eek:

Today, 08:12pm

This message is hidden because fitump56 is on your ignore list.

Ahhhhh. Sitting on the deck watching the sunset over Monterey Bay and then seeing this on my laptop screen. Life is good, indeed.

This shows a total lack of umpiring knowledge on your part. First, not "everyone knows them anyways." You would be surprised (or maybe not) that many umpires do things differently, even though the mechanics are 180 degrees opposite of what they are doing. Second, there are many more things to go over besides two. Bob pointed out just some of the other things you need to go over, especially when working with someone for the first time.

That is your association's problem for allowing umpires to come running up to the park lacing up their shoes hollering, "I'm here, don't start without me!"

Around here, you would not be getting assignments for games if you can't be at least 30 minutes early for them. That is considered the minimum. If one's job interferes, they get 5:00 PM youth ball games instead of HS. Or they are relegated to only working on their days off. Anyway, you don't come showing up 7 minutes before a game.

And what's this about an umpire's room? I've only worked in a MLB park a couple of times, and a few nice college yards. Do you often get a dressing room? Wow, must be nice. What's wrong with hanging out in the parking lot waiting for your partner? That's SOP here in the big city. Are you afraid of something?:confused:

Different areas have different standards for "umpires rooms". In some areas around the world, it's a leage "requirement" that there be an umpire's dressing room. :shrug:

Half of the games I umpire are at one community centre that has three parks at it. I try to be in the dirty umpire's room 30 minutes before gametime. I get dressed there, and it is the responsibility of my partner to show up. If he doesn't, well I guess we don't get to go over positioning and rotations.

What I could use, as another poster mentioned, is a red book or CIBA or whatever it's called. They don't sell umpiring books in Canada, but I will be in Cooperstown and will see what they have there.

I don't drive, and probably won't get insurance for a couple of years when I am older. An umpire's room is a place to store my bike. Plus why should any umpire have to hang around in the parking lot? That's not professional, you don't get any privacy, and you make yourself noticed before you even step on the field.

The CCA Manual and The Manual For The Two Umpire System (Red Book) are available online at Gerry Davis Sports




Most of us aren't fortunate to have a place to change other than a parking lot. There are some places I umpire where there's a locker room of sorts for us, but they're few and far between.


Tim.

I just got through working with a partner that I never worked with. He arrived 30 minutes before the game and announced that he had the plate. We went over coverages with no one on and men on. We went over putting the ball in play and fair and foul coverage.

Once the game began, He never put the ball in play, never followed the batter runner, never covered 3rd. I went out 3 times from the A position only to turn around to find him still at the plate. When I was "in", I had no idea if a ball hit down the line was fair or foul. Needless to say, it was one hell of a pain in the a$$ to work with this person.

So to those who think that pre-game discussions are a waste, you don't know what you are talking about. Standing out there not knowing what your partner is doing or where he will be is one of the worst things that can happen. No one who thinks like this (lack of pre-game) should even umpire a LL game!

actually, i teleport to the field just so no one notices me. apparently its unprofessional if anyone sees you outside of the fences.

on a serious note, 100% of the games i have done so far in illinois have been games in which there was no dressing room. on the other hand, probably 95% of the games i did in pennsylvania were games where there was a dressing room. i umpired with professionalism in both states...im not sure how it would be unprofessional to get dressed where you need to get dressed.

Sad commentary. Just goes to show what no pre-game will do for you.

One week ago, 15 and under girls softball tournament. I go near the backstop, take off my base pants, put my jock on over my underware, then put my plate pants on. Once I am in uniform, my friend takes me to where nobody is sitting, and tells me that there were a couple people who were very offended that I would take off my pants at a public place with so many kids, and that the tournament convenor was offering to give me my $15 for the game if I left immediately. Good god almighty. Why does anyone even notice that I switched into my plate pants? While I know I probably should have gone behind a tree where there weren't any people, this so-called "problem" would have been avoided had their been an umpire's room, as I am certain I would have gone into the room.

I know (hope) that this is another canadian joke. But, surely even you can see the difference between changing in the back of a parking lot when there are n't a whole lot of people about and what you described.

All of the guys I work with wear either full length or short Under Armor type compression garments. I've never heard anyone say a word about any of us changing in the parking lot.


Tim.

I'm sure that this is a joke also. Because if I were the parent of a 15 year old girl and you pulled this stunt I would be livid.

I have never met a parking lot I could not change in without anyone seeing me do so. I would much rather change in the parking lot than tote my sh*t to a changing room 100 yards or more away.

I agree so I don't ump LL. If pre-game isn't a waste, then WTF was your pre-game.

Pre-games with morons (which many umps are), pre-games with those who don't know enough to engage in a meaningful pre-game (which many umps qualify), pre-game with those who don't need it because they have worked together so often...looks to me like pre-games, since they are touted to be of such great value on this Forum, don't have such great value.

Which, again, is my entire point. It's a bunch of BS those that on this Forum are constanlty claiming great value to pre-games.

I have and gotten quite an earful about it which brings me to say the obvious "You think I like parking lot changes?" I'm not going into the woods, if there aren't any, build us a room or STFU.

Yeah, but it costs something on the order of $800 to ship it to Canada....:rolleyes:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by BigUmp56
The CCA Manual and The Manual For The Two Umpire System (Red Book) are available online at Gerry Davis Sports


Tim.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Sounds to me like an opportunity for you. Charge $500 and take it yourself.

That is exactly the way I would put it. If parents are going to go all balastic over their kids seeing an umpire's thighs, they really have been living in an igloo all these years. Goodness we wear spandex at all the wrestling tournaments we participate in, and not one of my teammates has yet to hear a complaint. And has nobody ever watched Olympic swimming and seen a speedo? And every kid watches WWE; what about the tights those wrestlers wear? Water polo? Diving?

Parents can pay extra tax money so that an umpire's room can be contructed, or at least unlocked by the city. Or they can simply tell their kids to look away. Or, as fitump said, they can STFU and endure the ungodly sight of another man's thighs, which they would have seen anyways had they ever watched a swimming race or wrestling match.

There is one difference. It's subtle but major in the minds of most everyone. You were undressing. Mind you, you exposed less flesh than an average 8 year old can see on the Internet in two mouse clicks, is not the point.

People have these screwed up, crossed eyed myopias. Porn is the Number One viewed content on the Internet. Same porn viewers shriek when you appear that you might actually expose your privates in public. :confused:

It's not fair, it's not logical but most of life isn't. Buck up. Pick your battles wisely. This isn't one you will win so go to your car, undress there.

Whoa there Wild Pony, my thighs are a thing of beauty. :eek: Not what I said. I undress in my car. If someone happens along when I take care not to go public, in a very uncomforable sitch, then I have zip tolerance for the complaints.

Or, at the current exchange rate, CDN $5. :mad: :mad:

That is what a parking lot is for you moron! You dropped 'trow right at the backstop??? You are a complete idiot! You have now made #2 on the ignore list - right behind your partner ftdump.

Good Riddance!

And he did it at a softball game with 15 year old girls watching!


Tim.

I'm guessing you need your humour chip upgraded, Ozzy.

Either that, or I do -- I think it was just a poor attempt at humour to make a point.

Sadly, I believe he was serious.

I was serious. Anyways, as fitump says, I should have gone behind some trees to change, even if getting into my plate pants is a trivial thing to get all upset about in the first place. Next time there are 9 year old teams playing on the field and hanging around the area I will be more wise and go behind a tree or something, just so that people don't freak out for no reason.

canadaump6,
what you did was inappropriate at best and at worst a chargable offense in some areas.
How can you not see that removing your trousers has a certain connotation that should never occur in front of young children - especially females?!?!
Why would you think that is appropriate?
And to put an athletic supporter on in front of anyone other than your wife or a fellow umpire is outrageous - I don't care if it was over jeans or sliders or underwear. You were wrong - terribly wrong.
If you can't see that, you may have more serious issues than those you have already demonstrated on this board recently.
Not only do I NOT condone your actions - I condemn them!

At minimum, find a men's restroom and change there...sheeze man!!!!

Canada, if you don't have a car, then use your partners car as you change. If you both don't have a car, then go find a tree or restroom to change. There is no reason to be changing behind the backstop period. Both you and your partner should find a place away from the main crowd to go and change between games, and discuss any issues that may have come up during your previous game. Obviously a pregame discussion isn't necessary by your own omission. If that means you have to walk a couple hundred yards, so what, if you can't walk that far, you have no business on a field.

I will admit to bad judgement in my situation, and yes I should have gone behind a tree. As for pregame discussions, not having a driver's license makes things tough, and most of the people in my league are there 10 minutes before game time so there is no option of going to their car to change. I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm just explaining my point of view. But for those of you who umpire at parks that do not have dressing rooms, what do your younger umpires do who do not drive? They have no car to get changed by, so what are they supposed to do?

As for the people here that take offence to the fact that I got changed in a public place, I take offence that you would take offence to something so trivial and insignificant. Anyways this discussion has gone on long enough, so if anyone else has anything to say or discuss, drop me a private message.

Perhaps when you mature a little and have your own children you'll understand why what you did was so totally inappropriate and offensive.


Tim.

There you go. :)

WOW lets not give this KID IDEAS like BREEDING or some thing like THAT!

at the BACKSTOP WOW --and hes TRUSTING to CALL games????



WOW

I worked the plate yesterday in a state championship game, 16-17 year olds. We had a 5 minute pre-game. And everyone did EXACTLY what they were supposed to do.

Of course none of us were rookies, and all of us rarely work a 6 man game, which makes pre-game essential.

I will never work a game with someone I have not worked with without at least a 5 minute pregame. I can say a lot in 5 minutes. With someone I have worked with often the pregame is very brief.

Come dressed (or at least have the undergarments on).

park the bike by the dressing room.

Park the bike near the back of the parking lot where you would park if you had a car.

Get a ride.

Canadaump, are there rest rooms for men at this park?

The rest room floors were drenched in urine and water. Not saying that is an excuse, just saying.

Seeing as this thread has turned into a "let's all get nasty at canadaump6 and make severely unkind judgements" thread, I think it is only fair that I take a stand.

(remainder of post deleted)

I don't think it did, and the rest of what you posted is a copy (or very close to one) of a post that's already been deleted once.