taking signs off the rubber
 

Sorry, beating a Dead horse but-Dixie Youth baseball wants to say that a pitcher taking signs of the rubber is a balk (with runners on). I would appreciate any rules under OBR that says that it is deceiving the runner & all thoughts on what y'all do to handle it. I disagree with the balk-am I wrong. Thanks

From the J/R:

Pitchers

a) must take signs from the catcher while in contact.
b) cannot habitually disengage the rubber after taking a sign,
c) upon disengaging, must separate their hands.

No penalty is mandated or suggested for violation of (a) through (c). Such action is simply prohibited.


It's a "don't do that" if anything at all. The intent of the rule is to prevent the pitcher from quick pitching, so unless he does it's not a balk.


Tim.

I disagree with the balk call also, however if Dixie Youth Rules say its a balk, then its a balk.

There are many rules I don't particularly agree with, but until the time comes, when I get to write the rules, I am kind of stuck doing my job.

Consistency within your own game, and from Umpire to Umpire is something we should all strive for. But by all means, we should always follow the rules we are paid to enforce.

tax
 

Yes it is a dead horse however:

What is a signal?

When do you know it is being given?

(I am sure "the pope" will chime in)

As Tim has noted above: the regulation for taking a gin while on the pitcher's plate is to assure that there is no quick return pitch.

It is a "don't do that rule" no matter why it is called.

Leave it to something like Dixie to demand a ruling.

Regards,

Tee brings up a very interesting point. Signals are being flashed all over the place, the coach on the bucket, the catcher, the guys on the bench, so how do you known when and from where the pitcher gets the actual 'signal'?

From my perspective, as long as he toes the slab, and looks in to the catcher before the pitch, he's ok. Now, is he getting the signal from the catcher at that point, who knows?

If the pitcher is taking a gin while on the pitcher's plate in a game I'm working, he'd better have the common courtesy to offer one to the umpire! ;)

JM

That explains the 16 straight pitches into the backstop and the big grin on his face...shades of Ryne Duren (sp?)

Here's what I do when they want me to call a balk for this. I just say to them, "If you can show me in the rule book where it says that taking signs off the rubber is a balk, I will call it as such". In over 25 years, no one has been able to show me.

Regards

This isn't all that different than a coach wanting a balk called because F1 didn't immediately drop his hands to his sides after disengaging.


Tim.

Tee --

Maybe you can get clarification on this from FED (I know that doesn't apply to the OP and Dixie rules).

On a test a few years ago, FED had a question on this issue. The answer indicated that this (looking in to the catcher while not on the rubber) was to be a balk / illegal pitch in FED.

From OBR...

As stated in previous posts, there is no penalty except for a quick pitch, which according to 8.05 (e) is a balk with runners on base.

This was posted on another forum about a week ago. You bump into this all over.


It is a balk, and all signs to the pitcher MUST come through the catcher, had this situation in Fla and ump warned me (minor league ump) that if it did not stop that it would be a balk, parent was calling pitches behind my back to his son on the mound and crossing up my catcher.


Also this, from the same thread.

In New York 2 weeks ago ump gave warning to pitcher not to take signs until on the rubber or he would call a balk. Not so uncommon. Balk was not issued without a warning and explanation to 14u.

I'm glad all that bad advice never appeared in this forum. Oh wait, it did, since you quoted it.

I guess some Smitties work on the principle that if they don't like what the pitcher does, it's a balk.

Why does he need to look in to F2?

So that we can, if questioned, say..."It looked to me like he took a sign from the catcher", even if he didn't.

This is one of the more poorly worded rules in OBR. The rule should be ammended to read:

"The pitcher shall take his signs from the rubber."

The catcher has nothing to do with the intent of the rule. I've heard from ill-informed coaches on numerous occasions that the opposing team's pitcher is taking signs from the stands or dugout, wanting an infraction.

I just tell them it's not who gives the pitcher his signs, it's where he has to take the signs that matters.


Tim.

OK Mr Umpires......as a coach I have had this called on my pitchers as a "balk" and bases awarded (no quick pitch involved). From what I have been able to see in you forum....it really isn't a balk and this is one of the many myths some umpires still call. IS THAT CORRECT?

No "real umpire" would call this a balk.

If your pitcher got called for this, some so called umpire read as far as, must be on.. then figured, he's a pitcher, he can't do it, it must be a balk.

Sorry you had to see that.

Coaches there is absolutely no reason to worry about this. It will have no bearing on the outcome, unless, you of course make a deal out of it. And the younger the players the more of a big deal you'll make it.
Remember the younger the players the more excuses for failure they will gladly jump on. And parent and some coaches will follow..don't bite.

How would an umpire possible know if this was being violated.

EX: the sign for a fast ball is "no sign", just bring it big fella.

EX: When I was an F1 if the first sign given was what I wanted, there was no nod or anything, just a wind up.

EX: How about coaches flashing signs to F2, if it's my F1 and I'm coaching, he'll know that what I called is what it's gonna be, so he see the sign from F2 no reason to nod or shake it off, he's going.

EX: F2 goes out and tells F1, now look bonehead, I want a fastball down the pipe, followed by a nice change, then we'll smoke this knuckle head with another fastball on his hands, got it?
There's three pitches with no signs...and he was off the rubber, wow.

This should be stricken from the rules..and even if it isn't, it should be stricken from any good coaches "things to sweat" list.

The rule should read simply, F1 shall not quick pitch..

The pitcher has to be on the rubber when he takes his sign from the catcher. In other words, he can get signs while off the rubber from anyone else in the ballpark, but if he gets a sign from the catcher, he shall be on the rubber when he does so. There is no penalty for violation of this rule. It's a "don't do that anymore" type thing. Just do not allow the pitcher to get his sign and then quickly step on the rubber and pitch when the batter isn't ready. One way you coaches can help put a stop to taking signs off the rubber is to tell your catcher to wait until Skippy gets on the rubber before giving signs. There, problem solved.

Rule 8.01 Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.

Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher’s plate.

Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides. Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.

That's just not correct either.

As the pitcher is approaching the hill, the catcher wiggles his fingers on top of the shinguard for a throw over. That's a sign off the rubber, and perfectly legal.

Or, first and third, and catcher steps up and give his infield, including the pitcher, the play. "Hey man, the pitcher isn't on the rubber!". Another sign, without contact.

It's a dopey rule that's been ignored for many years.

Dopey? Yes. Ignored? Definitely. Rule? Absolutely.

It is not illegal for pitcher to take a signal from anyone, including the catcher, while not in contact with the pitcher's plate. But, the pitcher, while in contact with the pitcher's plate, shall take or simulate taking a signal from the catcher.

The requirement, that the pitcher take or simulate taking a signal from the catcher, is in effect when F1 is a pitcher and that only happens when F1 is intentionally in contact with the pitcher's plate. When F1 is not intentionally in contact with the pitcher's plate, he is an infielder who occupies the pitcher's defensive position. NFHS R61-S1-A1 specifically states that the pitching regulations begins when F1 intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate.

F1 taking signals from F2 or anybody else for that matter while not in contact with the pitcher's plate is nothing. It is not a "do not do that again situation" either. When the opposition complains just tell him that F1 has not commited an infraction of the rules and move on.

MTD, Sr.

I would just like to wholeheartedly concur with MTD, Sr.'s synopsis. Well said.

JM

How on Earth do you fake taking a sign? Honestly, that makes no sense at all.

Why are we resurrecting threads from two years ago?

Because lately there has been a shortage of interesting ones, I guess.

Look at the catcher.

Thank you.

MTD, Sr.

http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~carlosdonato/t1_fernando.jpg
THAT'S A BALK!