. . . returns immediately . . .

[Jim Porter]

Here's a call I made in the RIMSBL Over-30's Finals this past season. I caught a lot of grief. However, I would've caught a lot of grief no matter which way I called it.

A strange hopper was hit to F4, shaded towards F3. F3 started for the ball, and then thought better of it. F4 fielded the ball and tried to throw to F3, who was on the run. He missed it, and the ball bounced over to the fence.

After the BR over-ran first, he didn't immediately realize that the ball had been overthrown. Once he did, he flinched toward second, but immediately stopped himself when he saw F2 field the errant throw. F2 flipped to F3, who chased the BR down and applied a tag.

My call: Out!

So, did I deserve the grief I caught? Is a, "flinch," toward second enough for you to decide that the BR did not, "return immediately," to first? Or would you require more, like a step toward second, before you'll terminate the BR's protection? Should I have said something to the BR to let him know he was in jeopardy? Give it to me good!

[rex]

So, did I deserve the grief I caught?---- Yes

Is a, "flinch," toward second enough for you to decide that the BR did not, "return immediately," to first?----- What does returning immediately got to do with this? You felt he made an attempt to go to second. But he didn't, he "Flinched".


Or would you require more, like a step toward second, before you'll terminate the BR's protection?---In the act of making a U turn to the left you have to step to the left. IMO the runner would have to attempt to GO to the left.


Should I have said something to the BR to let him know he was in jeopardy?---No


Give it to me good!---That's as good as it gets. Jim you know I don't talk much.

rex

[GarthB]

Jim, you state:

"Once he did, he flinched toward second, but immediately stopped himself when he saw F2 field the errant throw. F2 flipped to F3, who chased the BR down and applied a tag."

In his notes to 7.08(c), Evans provides this guideline: "The batter-runner may turn either direction as long as he makes no attempt to advance to his next base. (Bold emphasis, mine)

I wasn't there, but the way I read your post I believe you made the right call. If it was noticable that he had to stop himself, even from flinching, when he saw F2 field the ball, he made enough of an attempt to lose his protection.

Now as a caveat, I am agreeing in part because of your experience, your skill and your history of good judgement. I believe that if you took note of him stopping his flinch towards second, and it gave you pause to make the out call, it had to be noticeable enough to deserve it.

This same post by a rookie would cause me to ask a few questions that need not be asked of you.

BTW: You are right in guessing that grief would follow, either way you called this.

[Jim Porter]

Rex said:

What does returning immediately got to do with this?

I dunno, rex. It is the subject of the thread. It might be important.

*grin*

[rex]

I disagree Jim, making an attempt for second and returning immediately to first are two different things.


rex

[rex]

By the way I agree with Garth. It's a kinda "You had to be there".


rex

[Bfair]

It's obviously a matter of judgment regarding what one deems to be "an attempt to advance." I think I have always applied the rule moreso in accordance with J/R's statement regarding the rule:

A batter-runner over-running first base who subsequently takes a single step (or steps) toward second base with intent to advance [my emphasis] is no longer over-running and can be tagged out while off base.

I find it difficult to think that without a single step that a runner could be attempting advance. BR obviously is not going to make a "dive" into 2nd base from his location after overrunning 1B. Of course, this doesn't mean that a single step toward 2B constitutes a runner attempting to advance to 2nd. He may have just turned toward 2B after overrunning 1B, which is legal.

Combine that "flinch" with a single step, then I've got an attempt to advance, but the flinch only without any step in that direction I would not judge to be an "attempt to advance." I think a flinch only without any step may be considered booger picking. IMO, I hope your flinch included at least a single step when you declared the runner out. A quick turn to see what occurred on the play might be judged as a flinch, but no decision on advancing may have been made by the runner. The step with the flinch proves that decision was made---if only briefly.

I think this is a situation where J/R provides just a little extra information than JEA in their attempt to provide guidance on making this calll.

Just my opinion,

Freix



[Edited by Bfair on Jan 10th, 2002 at 08:57 AM]

[His High Holiness]

Jim;

I have been involved in 3 or 4 controversies over the years regarding flinches.

I called them all out. The defense would not be trying to make the play on the BR if he had not flinched. The defense saw it clearly. The BR is making my job difficult by flinching and not hustling back to the bag. The BR has put me in this no win position. I am returning the favor and calling him OUT. In my judgement, the BR made an attempt for 2nd.

Peter

[Rich Ives]

To add to Peter's comment - put your player hat on - the runner is either

1) Trying to make the defense think he's going to try for second and is attempting to get a reaction, in which case the out should be the expected result and is OK

or

2) The runner was saying "I'm-going-no-I'm-not" in his head in which case the runner WAS attempting but changed his mind so the out is OK.

I've had it called an out for and against me and I agreed with the calls in each case. Nary a peep from the other manager either.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by rex
I disagree Jim, making an attempt for second and returning immediately to first are two different things.
rex

I don't think they're supposed to be. A BR who overruns first and makes an attempt for second did not return immediately to first. Don't you think?

Bah, it's just semantics I'm toying with in a coy manner. Forgive me.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Jim Porter

So, did I deserve the grief I caught? Is a, "flinch," toward second enough for you to decide that the BR did not, "return immediately," to first? Or would you require more, like a step toward second, before you'll terminate the BR's protection?

Jim in your scenario, I would agree with your call because of the situation. B1 saw the ball overthrown so his "flinch" towards second would indicate to me that B1 made a legitimate attempt to go but what happend:

He saw F2 backing up the play and since this is a men's league probably said to himself oh s@@t I'm a dead duck if I try for second, so he decided to go back - Oops Too late.

If this were a routine type play, then B1 would have to do something more than "flinch" for me to consider that he / she attempted to go to the next base.

As umpires not only do we have to know the rules but we also have to have awareness of what's going on out there as evident in your thread.

Pete Booth

[rex]

I gives up.

Like Garth said (kinda) ya would have to be there.

I say it’s in how ya read it. (That’s probably why I always screw up on a lot of questions on Fed tests)

My hang up is one word “flinch”. Some folks “flinch” when you act like your gonna throw a ball at them. Some “flinch” when an unexpected sound comes from an unseen area. Hell I “flinch” when “Yes Dear” (my wife) walks up to me real fast.

Flinch doesn’t mean going to. According to “Webster” flinch means to withdraw or shrink from.

So if he flinched toward second something in the foul area caused him to withdraw FROM that direction and “flinch TOWARD second”.

We have all seen players “duck and cover” or flinch when they thought they where going to get hit with the ball coming from unknown direction.

Not saying he did, not saying he didn’t. Just saying I read it for what the word means.

Now then if feint would have used, nail the sucker. BUT then there wouldn’t have been much of a challenge to the question.


I guess you’d just have to have been there.


BUT, Jim, if you believe you used “flinch” correctly, I believe you done bad.



rex

[Edited by rex on Jan 10th, 2002 at 11:13 PM]

[Ump20]

Originally posted by Jim Porter
Here's a call I made in the RIMSBL Over-30's Finals this past season. I caught a lot of grief. However, I would've caught a lot of grief no matter which way I called it.

A strange hopper was hit to F4, shaded towards F3. F3 started for the ball, and then thought better of it. F4 fielded the ball and tried to throw to F3, who was on the run. He missed it, and the ball bounced over to the fence.

After the BR over-ran first, he didn't immediately realize that the ball had been overthrown. Once he did, he flinched toward second, but immediately stopped himself when he saw F2 field the errant throw. F2 flipped to F3, who chased the BR down and applied a tag.

My call: Out!

So, did I deserve the grief I caught? Is a, "flinch," toward second enough for you to decide that the BR did not, "return immediately," to first? Or would you require more, like a step toward second, before you'll terminate the BR's protection? Should I have said something to the BR to let him know he was in jeopardy? Give it to me good!

I'm not sure I understand the subtle difference between the flinch and whether we are ruling on an immediate return to first base or an attempt to advance to second. It is my understanding that a flinch can be considered an attempt especially when the batter-runner has no clue as to where the thrown ball went. As BU I made this OUT call a couple of years ago in a High School Varsity game. I thought I made the right call on the runner making an "attempt". Later in the game I was sure I had when I got a chance to ask PU and he said the runner told his coach "I didn't know where the ball was". The first baseman had short-hopped a bad throw.

I would say if you have any doubt rule an OUT when the runner makes a deliberate STEP toward second with the purpose of advancing. Jim/NYC

[Jim Porter]

Here's a little added info to the situation:

The entire first base defensive dugout, all their fans nearby, as well as most of the fielders on that side all noticed the flinch. They were yelling for a tag on the BR. After the call, they were all convinced I was right, and took my side vehemently.

The entire third base offensive dugout was convinced I was wrong. They opposed me vehemently. They were ahead 12-4, but still voiced their disgust with the call.

My Umpire-in-Chief was the plate umpire. He started right in on me with that call when we talked next to his van as he took off his gear. I didn't want to talk about it there, but he's kind of an old stubborn fella, and he loudly expressed his dislike for the call.

Well, one of the fans from the defensive team, who had been razzing my UIC all night from the stands, overheard my UIC and began defending my call. Before I could say anything, this guy said to my UIC, "You shouldn't have been umpiring this game. Talk about a conflict of interest!"

You see, my UIC was once the coach of the offensive team. Most of the players on that team also play for a team my UIC currently coaches in another amateur league. But he assigned himself the plate for the finals nonetheless.

The next thing I know, my UIC loses his temper and says, "Oh yeah? You've wanted a piece of me all night. Now you've got it!" and begins charging for this guy. My UIC walks right up to him and gives him a right cross to the jaw. Mind you, my UIC is, like, 75 years old. It was as funny as it was sad.

Well, the cops were called and I actually had to give statements against my UIC. Needless to say, he is not my UIC this year. He's been removed from duties, but not for the fight. It was because he stubbornly assigns himself all the "good" games, and the league president, and too many others, thinks he stinks.

Considering the rate of official abuse in today's amateur sports, I figured the front office would be a little upset to learn that an official assaulted someone else. However, that was not the case. The league president said to me, and I quote, "I know the guy he hit. He was riding him all night. If I was there, I would've told him to get a few shots in for me."

And that's the whole shocking story. In retrospect, maybe I should've called him safe. *grin*

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by rex
BUT, Jim, if you believe you used ?flinch? correctly, I believe you done bad. -rex

According to dictionary.com, the noun, "flinch," means, "an act or instance of starting, wincing, or recoiling."

The intransitive verb, "to flinch," means, "1. To start or wince involuntarily, as from surprise or pain."


I meant a flinch - - "an instance of starting," and, "to start involuntarily from surprise."