Catharsis

[UmpJM]

JJ,

While I would agree that it would have been better had wish7694 not gotten himself ejected, I find your characterization of him as a "Rat" both puerile and prejudicial.

My impression from reading wish's OP is that he conducted himself reasonably and properly until the umpire's improper conduct exhausted his patience. Though I've never met the man (and this is, apparently, his 1st post), I found his description of the facts of the matter credible. I inferred that he was not particularly proud of the fact that he "went ballistic" - but, none of us is perfect.

Just as there are Rat coaches, so, too, are there incompetent, dickhead umpires. In both the former and the latter case, these are the exceptions rather than the rule. In this case, my impression is that wish wasn't and the umpire was.

Of course, I wasn't there, so I could be wrong.

JM

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

JJ,

While I would agree that it would have been better had wish7694 not gotten himself ejected, I find your characterization of him as a "Rat" both puerile and prejudicial.

My impression from reading wish's OP is that he conducted himself reasonably and properly until the umpire's improper conduct exhausted his patience. Though I've never met the man (and this is, apparently, his 1st post), I found his description of the facts of the matter credible. I inferred that he was not particularly proud of the fact that he "went ballistic" - but, none of us is perfect.

Just as there are Rat coaches, so, too, are there incompetent, dickhead umpires. In both the former and the latter case, these are the exceptions rather than the rule. In this case, my impression is that wish wasn't and the umpire was.

Of course, I wasn't there, so I could be wrong.

JM

The best that can be said of the most reasonable coaches is that they are lobbyists, have biased viewpoints and cannot be trusted.

The rest are rats.

Remember, if coaches and players didn't lie or cheat, you wouldn't need umpires.

[UmpJM]

Garth

Originally Posted by GarthB

The best that can be said of the most reasonable coaches is that they are lobbyists, have biased viewpoints and cannot be trusted.

While they are certainly lobbyists (for their team) and undoubtedly have biased viewpoints (which actually impairs their abilities of perception), there are some coaches who can be trusted. Difficult though that may be to believe.

Originally Posted by GarthB

The rest are rats.

To my chagrin, I find it impossible to dispute the notion that there are a fair number of rats out there.

Originally Posted by GarthB

Remember, if coaches and players didn't lie or cheat, you wouldn't need umpires.

As I have said before, I believe that this statement demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the role of an umpire in the game of baseball.

JM

P.S. How's your season going? I'm having a BLAST! Umpiring is significantly more fun than coaching, and WAAAYYYYY less stressful.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Garth



While they are certainly lobbyists (for their team) and undoubtedly have biased viewpoints (which actually impairs their abilities of perception), there are some coaches who can be trusted. Difficult though that may be to believe.

Your conclusion is not supported by the premise you accept.

To my chagrin, I find it impossible to dispute the notion that there are a fair number of rats out there.

The conversion is near complete.

As I have said before, I believe that this statement demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the role of an umpire in the game of baseball.

JM

And as I have said before, you are wrong. What is the fundamental job of an umpire? It is to see that neither side has an advantage not intended by the rules. If coaches and players didn't lie or cheat, that wouldn't happen.

P.S. How's your season going? I'm having a BLAST! Umpiring is significantly more fun than coaching, and WAAAYYYYY less stressful.

I've had a great season. I've worked 12 games with a certain new MiLB umpire including a DH on Father's Day.

[wish7694]

JJ

I went ballistic in the sense that I called him out saying that sportsmanship goes both ways and that he can't go after my players and that the ejection was a terrible call. High school baseball is not youth baseball in that the coaches are paid to coach and wins and losses affect our continued employment. I absolutely accept that what I did after the ejection was wrong, but surely you can recognize that high school athletes can appreciate a coach standing up to a tyrannical umpire.

I truly appreciate that most of you have given support and recognize that an umpire can aggravate the situation if it is not handled properly. JJ, You give both the players and coaches far to little credit in assuming that they would extrapolate from this instance that going ballistic is OK. I always preach to my players to control what they have in their power to control, which is never the umpire. I am sure that you do not believe my description of the situation, but if you are ejected without ever having said anything to the umpire, clearly something is wrong.

I accept what I did after the ejection was wrong, but remember, you do not have the pressure of your record in part determining your continued employment. I would say that things went far beyond not "going my way".

You represent a perfect example of the type of condescending attitude coaches fear and despise. Unfortunately those umpires stick in our memory longer than the many quality umpires we get to work with.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by wish7694

JJ

... but remember, you do not have the pressure of your record in part determining your continued employment.

That's crap. Umpires who work at the professional level, and at the highest levels of amateur ball (as does the person to whom you were responding), have the pressure of their record TOTALLY determining their continued employment.

The big difference is that when a coach is let go, there's a press release and a couple of interviews. With umpires, it happens that one day, they just aren't there anymore.

[wish7694]

Publius, I certainly do not mean to imply that umpires are not evaluated and critiqued, certainly to a great degree at the professional and collegiate level. But the reality is that high school umpires have MUCH better job security than the coaches they interact with.

This does not in any way justify inappropriate behavior by a coach towards umpires. I am just trying to present a point of view that is probably not expressed often on this board.

[ozzy6900]

To be honest with you wish7694, I have had many a player question a call here and there. It is part of the game. But when they get out of line, I simply remind them that I am the umpire, not them. I can pretty much count the players that I have ejected for stepping over the line (this does not count the players that get ejected due to rule violations aka malicious contact and the like).

To follow a player or coach that is walking away is just wrong! I don't teach that, I do not condone that and if I am observing an umpire on our board, his report won't be too favorable! Now, I carry this over to the summer leagues that I am involved with also and it has cut down on the problems over the years.

Head coaches and managers have the most freedom when it comes to argument. If a manager or head coach is coming out to me, I know it is not to discuss the world economy but it is also a time when I have to keep an open ear. I try to treat them with respect and expect the same in return. I allow them to speak their mind until they have made their point, repeat themselves, or just stop talking. I explain my position and for the most part, they know that the call won't change - the conversation is done! Most managers and head coaches then know it's time to get back to the game.

The trick is respect - a two way street. When it comes to High School or NCAA, we all know that jobs are on the line. I'm going to reason with you and flat out tell you that I am trying to keep you in the game. So if I eject you from a FED game, you really ejected yourself!

The only thing that I can suggest is keep this umpire's face or number embedded in your mind. When you run into him again, handle him with kid gloves and keep your players in line so that he has no reason to eject anyone. If this doesn't work, get hold of his association and lodge a complaint.

Best of luck.

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

To be honest with you wish7694, I have had many a player question a call here and there. It is part of the game. But when they get out of line, I simply remind them that I am the umpire, not them. I can pretty much count the players that I have ejected for stepping over the line (this does not count the players that get ejected due to rule violations aka malicious contact and the like).

To follow a player or coach that is walking away is just wrong! I don't teach that, I do not condone that and if I am observing an umpire on our board, his report won't be too favorable! Now, I carry this over to the summer leagues that I am involved with also and it has cut down on the problems over the years.

Head coaches and managers have the most freedom when it comes to argument. If a manager or head coach is coming out to me, I know it is not to discuss the world economy but it is also a time when I have to keep an open ear. I try to treat them with respect and expect the same in return. I allow them to speak their mind until they have made their point, repeat themselves, or just stop talking. I explain my position and for the most part, they know that the call won't change - the conversation is done! Most managers and head coaches then know it's time to get back to the game.

The trick is respect - a two way street. When it comes to High School or NCAA, we all know that jobs are on the line. I'm going to reason with you and flat out tell you that I am trying to keep you in the game. So if I eject you from a FED game, you really ejected yourself!

The only thing that I can suggest is keep this umpire's face or number embedded in your mind. When you run into him again, handle him with kid gloves and keep your players in line so that he has no reason to eject anyone. If this doesn't work, get hold of his association and lodge a complaint.

Best of luck.

ozzy - best post yet. I too coach and umpire. I coach 15-17 and umpire 13-14 and over 18. As an umpire there are some coaches that are just plain jerks. As a coach there are some umpires that are just plain jerks. As a coach you teach your kids respect for the umpire. As an umpire you try to find a way to keep people in the game by defusing a situation. As an umpire the other day I tossed a 13 year old - rung him up on strike 3, he took two steps towards the bench and proceeded to throw the bat like a javelin to the fence some 25' away. Nobody on that side said a word. After the game the kid, no longer in uniform, came up and personally apologized. I suspect his parents had something to do about it, but he was genuinely contrite. I accepted his apology and shook his hand. I could have ignored him but I didn't. Coaches in that league know I'm a fair umpire, but they also know I won't take any crap. You get a lot of respect that way. There are several really bad umpires and I confess I have to bite my tongue, but I do. I do everything I can to set a good example for my players when I am in coaching mode. I think it's pretty clear from the post that wish7694 does the same. I wish him well.

[Eastshire]

Sounds like an ump who is in over his head. I always appreciate a coach who has my back and is on his players when they react improperly.