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what's up with Div. 1 umps
Two different super regionals. Two different calls. Both changed (incorrectly) after a gathereing of the umps. One a tag / no tag down the firsty base line and the other a first baseman holding the bag or not. Both original calls correct according to instant replay. What ever happened to "coach it's may call and there wasn't a tag" or "it's my call and he held the bag".
Instead both crews look like idiots undeserving of a playoff spot. |
This is the problem with the "ask for help" or "get it right" communities. If you have everyone talking after simply plays, you will have mistakes. Forget the D1 level, every damn play that was close in the games I was involved in coaches wanted help to be asked for. This has become an epidemic at all levels. Then we appease the coach for a play that should not be changed on any level.
Peace |
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Batter swings and the ball slowly rolls up the line towards third base and beats the throw to first. Defensive coach is granted time and comes to the PU. C: Blue, that had to be foul, the ball contacted to batters foot. PU: I've got a fair ball, I never saw the ball hit the batter's foot. C: Can you get some help from your partner, he was looking in on the play and had a better angle? PU: No coach, I'm not going to my partner on this one. That's an immediate call. Had my partner seen the ball hit the batter's foot, he would have killed the play had he seen it. Let's play ball coach. |
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If an umpire in A is getting help, why are we even hiring him? |
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Coach - "Blue, you need to check with your partner on that". Me - "Coach, I've got the call. If I needed help, I would have gotten it before I made the call. Let's get back to the game now!" I rarely call a conference except on obstruction. That is one call where you may need the input of your PU. He is supposed to be watching the "big picture" in most cases so he can help place runners to the correct bases. Other than that, I'm within 20 feet of the call, why do I want to "huddle" with people that are 50 to 100 feet away? Regards |
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I have no problems telling people to pound sand, where appropriate. |
i've recently adopted the "2 steps fair" for plays at first. you get a great look at the possible pulled foot from this angle. this is my first year doing college ball and i had play where F3 had to stretch for a throw and clearly came off the bag. i called the runner safe and sold it by indicating that F3 was off the bag. defensive coach went ballistic and demanded that i get help. i refused to do so for the reasons that have been previously stated. i had a great look at the play from 15-20 ft away. there was no way i could go to my partner for help on that play.
i know "get it right" is the mantra and i'm all for that, but is there any ncaa policy which requires us to confer on such a play just to keep a coach happy? i considered going to my partner and telling him that i have the call, but i just want to placate the coach - but i chose to stick it out and take the heat. the only downside for doing so is that you look stubborn and bullheaded in the eyes of the coach. is pride worth creating such an impression? |
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Peace |
Mr. Rutledge - while I often do not agree with you I would happily work with you! You're my kind of umpire!
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I'm hoping that the overturning of correct calls slows down this practice in situations where it's clear that one umpire (and only one) has the best view of a play and the coaches still shop for their desired call. |
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Yes.. .......... |
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Carl's list also sparked a HUGE debate espeically with the word Legally. I realize Carl's list is outdated, but look what's happened since. This "getting the call right" business is overhyped and has gotten out of hand and if one stuck with the list Carl posted, would make all our lives easier. The fact is We will not get the call right and in some instances calls which were originally called correctly are getting reversed and are now incorrect. Once you start asking for help it NEVER ends. Pete Booth |
As many have argued in the past when the warm-fuzzy advocates repeated their "get it right, get it right, get it right" chant, there is no guarantee that the non-calling umpire who interjects his opinon has it right.
Funny how these same warmfuzzies become silent when we have so clear an example of why they are wrong. |
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Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call. Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc. Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help. However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help. Is it a good idea or not? Thanks Pete Booth |
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I belong to the "Five Calls You Can Change" school. (I don't refer to it as Carl's list, because I've also heard it from professional umpires.) However, even with some of these, a pulled foot, for example, I will not go to my partner if I'm 100% good with my call, and I have already made my call. Any help on this or a swipe tag, in my practice, must be requested before a call is made. That said, a decision made to go to your partner, I believe, should result in your partner giving what he has, provided he feels 100% confident of his call. Even a 99% confidence factor should lead to his yielding to your call. |
" i considered going to my partner and telling him that i have the call, but i just want to placate the coach - but i chose to stick it out and take the heat. the only downside for doing so is that you look stubborn and bullheaded in the eyes of the coach. is pride worth creating such an impression?"
I consider it keeping control of the game, not "pride". If you let the coach dictate the actions of the umpire, might as well let him call the game for you from the bench. If you feel you need help, go for it. But don't let anyone else decide your actions |
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I told a coach a few weeks ago in a regional HS final on this VERY situation (pulled foot situation, I'm in A): One call, one umpire. He didn't like it. Tough noogies. He didn't ask again. |
But is there a place for asking for help in the realm of game management? Perhaps he wants a check swing appeal on something that was not even close. He is a known problem and will probably get upset if you don't give it to him. So you point to your partner, he gives the SAFE, and we go on. Seems to me that is avoiding a confrentation and not giving the appearance that you are looking for trouble as the umpire.
Just because he asks for help does not mean the call needs to change. I do understand the precedent it sets with that coach, and others, when you go for help on a pulled foot or swipe tag. My point is that in certain situations, from a game management perspective, it may not be a bad idea to make it look like you are discussing the call, even if you know it is not going to be reversed. I'm not out to please coaches (trust me), but if I can squash a confrentation before it has a chance to stew, I'm all for it. |
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And if you're lucky this may give you an early opportunity to eliminate the known problem.:D If I'm certain of a call I will not go to my P for help. If my P agrees with me then all I've done is submitted to a coaches desire and set a precedent for the day and my call stands. No advantage to me. If my P disagrees then I either have to change my call, which I am confident is right(not good in many ways) or keep the call as is and drag my P into the mess (not good) The only advantage is that we may placate the coach for the moment but chances are good that we've only fed the little monster and he'll be coming back for more later. |
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Once again, I do not care what a coach thinks. I am not there to appease coaches. I am assigned to do a job and that is what I am going to do. If the coach does not like me, I likely passed many schools to work this game so personally who gives a damn what a particular coach thinks. Now what I will do is hustle, get in position whenever possible and if that is not enough, I will work somewhere else. I used to try to avoid confrontation and it got me no where. Even when I would try, I would somehow get into bigger confrontations. If you have no noticed umpires and officials in different sports follow all the procedures to the letter and they still get ripped by a coach because the call did not go their way. You are never going to make these clowns happy. Peace |
I always tell my partners that if I come to them on a checked swing or a pulled foot immediately I want to know what they have because I did not get a good look at the play. If a coach complains and insists I get help, I will go to my P after a short delay but expect him to confirm my call. This usually works. Now if my partner overrules me, I have to go along with his call.
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I hope you only go to P on check swing appeal if asked and reasonably speaking that is right away. So when would there be such a delay on a check swing that you would expect your P to confirm your call? If you have made an out call on a play at first I'm assuming you saw an out. If you go to your P to placate a coach after the out call I would suggest you do this in private conference and not yelling across the infield. If it's in conference then you cannot be overruled and you still have a choice to change the call or not. |
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Peace |
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This is from the 2005 NCAA Baseball Division 1 Championship Game Officials Manual, the last one I've seen, but I doubt that this section has been changed. Like it or not this is how it's taught.... You do it the NCAA's way or you don't work the big games. As you read you'll see that the umpire's do not have to go for help but it is urged in certain situations (section B & D). I always found section C most interesting and the most difficult for me to follow at first. 6.11 Getting the call right The first requisite of an umpire is to ultimately get all decisions correct. Umpire pride is important, but never as important as getting the play right. It is the philosophy of the NCAA that umpires always seek to get the call right. This may involve the reversal of a previously rendered decision. However, the correct decision – not the pride of any umpire – must prevail. Following are general guidelines for this policy: A) NCAA rule 3-6-f states “No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire’s decision, unless asked by the one making it; however, if there is a misinterpretation of a rule, it should be brought to the attention of the umpire-in-chief.” Therefore, except in special situations such as those outlined in the next paragraph, the umpire making the call must be the one to seek assistance of a partner. B) An umpire is urged to seek help when his view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play. An umpire is also encouraged to seek help in instances when he has any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling. C) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire. 1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul. 2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double. 3) Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher. 4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught. 5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force. 6) Spectator interference plays. 7) Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher’s foot was off the rubber. D) Umpires are not to seek help on plays which they are 100% confident in their judgment and view of the play. Head coaches are not entitled to a second opinion when the calling umpire is certain his decision is correct. On the other hand, and contrary to past practice, umpires are not to “die with a call” in cases where a) the calling umpire is not 100% certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information which could lead to a proper ruling. Both NCAA philosophy and umpire integrity – consistent with NCAA rules – dictate that calls be reversed in this situation. E) Skipped, tells how to conference. F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners. |
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In a 2-man or 3-man crew I can see this, because sometimes we have to make the call from the "B" or "C" position, where we are at a much greater disadvantage; but from the "A" position, there is no excuse for a guy not making this call correctly 100% of the time. Me? I'm not going to ask for help on this. At all. Besides, I operate under the "change the umpire and not the call" philosophy: if I'm not sure (from the "B" or "C" positions) if a guy pulled his foot off the bag, I go to my partner before making the call to see if he saw F3 pull off. I've never had a problem doing it this way, because it's much better than making the call, then having to go to him afterward, only to reverse the call. |
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Quick question with regards to going to partner before making the call, what if you don't have time to go to your partner. That is, F3 after possibly pulling his foot early off first throws home to get a play at home. What do you do with the call at first? Assume the foot was on and make the out call and then wait for the defense to discuss? Call the runner out and wait for the offense to complain? Certainly you wouldn't wait until the entire play ends before making this call. |
Good question. That is a play I've never had happen, which probably means it will happen to me now, and most likely when I'm working with Bob Jenkins. :D
Regardless, how much do you want to bet that I can get my partner to chime in quickly enough? ;) |
Thanks
Thanks for all the input on my original post. I think there is agreement for the most part. The "get it right" argument is going to lead to more issues than a whore in church. There are going to be days when even the best of us make a call of "out" at first and one split second later realize he was actually safe. Same thing for a third strike call that has an impact. If those have never happened to you, you haven't been on the field long. I hope no one thinks we should reverse ourselves in those situations.
The NCAA, FED and many others can learn a lesson from pros. Get in the best position you can, make the call, and in almost all instances, man up and stay with your call. If the coach thinks it's an ego thing because I won't go to my partner, it's just one more of his thoughts that I couldn't care less about. I'll say it again, in both games, the D1 crews looked foolish. BTY in another of the super regionals, a coach comes out of the dugout, onto the field, screaming about a balk called against his pitcher. NO EJECTION! Why????? |
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Because it is not against the rules to argue a balk. |
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Peace |
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Like it or not the "get it right" argument is becoming the recommended (sometimes required) way of doing things. This year our local HS association was preaching this so it is filtering down from the higher levels. While I both like/dislike this approach I worry that it will become a crutch for the "weaker" umpires by not requiring them to work as hard and improve. It might also cause some of us old guys to get lazy since we can meet in the middle and vote on the call. Bottom line remains as it has always been "hustle, get into position and make your own calls". Go for help only IF you didn't do your job and aren't sure of yourself, not just to make a coach happy. It gets on my nerves when my partner(s) come to me for help numerous times during a game, especially working 2-man. I'll tell them, "Look, you've got to get into position to make those calls, it's basic umpiring." I also give them what I've got and watch what they do next. I've even told them that I wouldn't change a particular call because the $hit will hit the fan (some calls are best left unchanged). Quote:
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What issues are there for whores in church? It seems to me to be the perfect place for ladies of the evening to congregate and confess their sins!
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My experience these last couple of years with "get the call right" is that the "other" coach is usually alright with the changed call. I get maybe two of these a year.
Also, I have NOT had coaches get ridiculous about asking me to "ask for help" all the time, on any close play. Yeah, here and there some dumb assistant says "you gotta ask for help", but most of the head coaches, the guys who I will talk to, understand when I can. I had one case where I didn't ask for help on a swipe tag on the first base line while I was in B. I was SURE he didn't tag him. I didn't go for help. The game was delayed for 3 minutes with the coach being pissed, and the assistant getting tossed by my partner. My partner said I was the only person in the park that didn't see the tag, yet, I was SOOOOOOOOOOOO sure I had it right. Generally, before "going for help", you let the coach know "Hey Skip, we are gonna talk about this, but if this call stands, we are not going to discuss it". This is fair, and when you do it, you set the ground rules. If he tries to argue it even after you "went for help", you can warn him to go back to his position, and if he doesn't, you can toss him. |
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