Cutoff Question
 

This is a question for all you players and coaches.

I was playing a game a couple days ago in my local adult league. I was in right field. With a runner on first base, a ball was hit through the hole to me. As I charged in to get it, I heard someone yell "go to three", and I knew the runner would be trying to go first to third. I fielded it, and threw it as hard as I could towards third base. It was an okay throw, and the shortstop ended up catching it between second and third base. The runner advanced to third, the batter stayed at first. I thought I did a good job of making a fairly strong, accurate throw.

But then I hear the third baseman say "you've gotta hit the cutoff on that one, we had a play on the guy going to third". Apparently it was my fault that I did not hit the cutoff guy. Funny thing is, the cutoff man was the second baseman, positioned just beyond the infield about 80 feet away from me, and had I pegged one in his direction that he decided to let go through, it would have ended up out of play, between home plate and third base.

Not only was the cutoff man not lined up between me and third base, he was too close to me, and he can't even throw. I take it as an insult that everyone would think that I should make a little-league distance throw to him, so that he can gun it across the infield.

When I got back to the dugout after the inning was over, I asked about what I did wrong. Apparently I am supposed to field the ball, look for the cutoff, and throw it to him, even if he is in a crappy position. I thought that I should just field it and throw it towards the base I am going to, without even worrying about whether the cutoff is there or not, and it is the cutoff's responsibility to be there in the first place. It's not like I have a feeble arm or anything, so I am offended that they would think I would even need a cutoff on a first to third type of play.

Something tells me there is a bit of favouritism on my team, as we have shortstops, first, second and third basemen who either cannot throw, field, or a combination of the two. Yet here I am, solid glove and okay arm, wasting away in right field.

Do you guys think I did the right thing in just throwing to the base and not worrying about whether the cutoff man was there or not, or should I have made a 80 foot throw to the cutoff man who was out of position and couldn't throw to save his life?

Bearing in mind that I confuse easily, but.....why would you ask this question on an <b>umpiring</b> web site? Should you take it to an appropriate site-- coaching/playing, E-Teamz, the Wonderful World of Little League, etc.? :confused:

I don't think that too may umpires really care about what you're asking.

This is about rules, not playing strategies so expect a bunch of "who cares" responses.


BTW, you run the play the way the coach wants you to run the play.

Who cares?

Didn't want to frustrate your expectations. ;)

I thought we had hurt his feelings and he was taking his ball and going home ?

I've seen questions regarding how wins and losses for starting pitchers are determined on this board. And I'm not about to go through the hassle of setting up a whole new account on another board just to ask one question. That being said, one question regarding baseball strategy is not a big deal. Why are all these non-athletes even posting in this thread anyways?

two bases from the time of the throw.

there, i had to make this thread look like it had something to do with officiating.

Hmmmmm........

Maybe because this is an umpires/sports officials discussion board and they are umpires/sports officials?

Ya think?

...funny, don't athletes know how to make a cutoff throw?

Because you walked up to the podium of an Astronomy convention and asked them a question about American History. Sorry - no double majors here. There's a reason you're getting the internet equivalent of a blank stare.

I'm sorry if you think it's our fault that you're too lazy (ie. "I'm not about to go through the hassle...") to set up an account on a site that could answer your question, and would rather expend your efforts here, where your topic is 100% off topic for the board.

There are three reasons you got put in right field:

1. The opponents have a strong left-handed hitting team.
2. You have a strong arm.
3. Your hitting and fielding skills are unproven.

If it was because of #2, you did fine. ;)

Except for the whole Not-Doing-What-His-Coach-Told-Him-To-Do thing...

Cdump, since apparently your best athletic days are behind you (happens to the best of us), I suggest you take up umpiring instead. A way to stay on the field, you might say.

Have you considered this option?

Ha ! Good call !
I imagine if the coach had told him ahead of time, it would have gone to the cut-off.
...Or maybe on that AA team, everyone, including F5, is a coach. I've been down that path.... :)

Or:
4. You are the very worst player on the team, and there was no other place to hide you.

He's Baaaaaaaaaaaaack.

Mick [Foley], you're a good man. Steve, don't you think that was a little harsh? GarthB, thanks for the introduction. LMan, I do both. Jurassic Referee, how do you respond to me when you have me on your ignore list:D ? Mcrowder, my question is only 96.5% unrelated to the topic of umpiring.

Sorry about the off-topic post guys but I was really hoping we could get into some discussion about this play.

I played at the MiLB level 30 years ago. When I was F8 or F9, our rule was to hit the cutoff man and let him make the decision. If for some reason, I felt compelled to make the throw directly to retire the runner, it had better be on the mark and I better nail that runner. Otherwise, it was shower time and a couple of days collecting splinters in my butt!

Do what you are told, just like umpiring!

Finite

Foley ?
That's not me. Yer thinkin' of someone else. :)

Some times arise where you have to ignore what you're told and do what you're certain is a better option. This may have been one of those times - you will have to resolve that yourself.

If the case exists that your ability is not being used, then you have to either (a) suck it up and play (and either voicing your opinion or not voicing your opinion), or (b) leave the team. I've had different sitchs in life where I've done each of the 3.

Good luck.

I didn't see it, but it sounds like you hit the cut off man if R1 advanced to third and BR remained at first. If a ground ball got through the infield, why throw to F4? You hit F6, you have the potential to possibly get R1 advancing or BR rounding first too far or trying to advance to second. F4 should be covering second if when the throw goes direct to F6.

The coach isn't always right. Can I get an amen?

welcome to the ignore list

And going against a coach's wishes is the fastest way to ride the pine. Can I get a witness on that?

Hit the cut-off man. Bunt when you get the sign. Steal when you get the sign.

GOSH I love telling coaches how to coach and players how to play! God knows they try to tell us how to umpire often enough!

p.s. - this comes only from D3 experience 32 years ago. But I think the ball's still round, the bases are still square, and the beers after the game are still cold.

Mick: You don't mind if I refer to you as the hardcore legend Mick Foley do you? That's a good thing, Mick Foley is the man.

I think in this case it's best to go with what the coach wants, and not complain about where I play as cooperation is a coach's best friend. I still think I made the right decision, but I'll go with what the coach wants, as tough as that may be to do. It actually was neither of the coaches who said anything, but rather the third baseman who would later go to the cutoff position on a throw from the outfield to home plate, thus leaving third base without a third baseman and taking away a possible out when the runner made the turn.

That is the correct way to work that cut play. F6 should rotate to third base.

Canada, who on the field do you have directing the cutoffs? When I played, the catcher would do so.

Therein lies the rub Welpe - catchers do not take charge these days as they used to. When I caught the field was my call (along with F3). And if coach didn't like our calls they'd talk to us about it. Nowadays it's all silence out there.

AH, the good old days of fundamental baseball.

5. Somebody had to pick last.......:rolleyes:

I'd assume it is the infielders who will tell each other "go cutoff on this one" or "I'll be the cutoff here". The other infielders just hope and pray that they are in the proper position. I really don't see the need for a cutoff on the first to third play though. The pitcher should cut it if he thinks the throw won't retire the runner, otherwise nothing wrong with a straight up challenge of the runner.

Okay Canada, now you're just being silly. The pitcher??? He BETTER be backing up your throw to third!!!

Another No-brainer
 

Canada6, you ottawa not umpire, nor even ottawa play, just ottawa watch it on tv.

No, I was just playin'. I think you are dealing with coaches who don't know the difference between a cut and a relay. What they wanted you to do was hit a relay man (who can't throw), instead of pegging the shortstop (who was acting as cut off man in this case) and holding R1 at third base. If you would have thrown to F4, the 3rd base coach would have probably sent R1 home if he knew of F4's weak arm. It sounds like you did the right thing, but got reamed for it.

Now, no more player questions or rants on the umpire board!:rolleyes:

Yeah, like that's gonna stop them.;)

The two most common cutoff men are F3 and F5, depending on the situation and from where the ball is being fielded. F4 or F6 are normally relay man (not cutoff man) on triple/possible inside-the-park homers. The pitcher should have been backing up either 3rd or home, depending on where the throw was likely to go, in this case 3rd.

It sounds like everything worked out okay with F6 cutting off your throw (unless you are convinced you would have had R1 at third), but he is not the traditional cutoff man on these plays.

If I thought this wouldn't lead to an avalanche of "playing" questions, I'd answer the OP (or SDS' post) with:

F3 should be the cut if the throw goes (toward) home on a hit to right.

F6 should be the cut if the throw goes (toward) third. F4 covers second. F1 backs up third. F7 backs up second. F3 moves back to first for a throw behind the runner.

But, I fear that it would lead to many more discussions, so I won't answer it that way, and I'll close the thread.