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-   -   Saw this today... (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/35544-saw-today.html)

LakeErieUmp Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:24pm
Steven - MUCH to not understand. Once a pitcher is entered in the lineup card he must face one batter. 3-1-1.
SO, Zack is in the game as starting pitcher. He did not substitute for anyone so he cannot be an illegal substitute! He batted out of order but he's in the game from the moment his name was on the lineup handed to PU and he's not a substitute.

GarthB Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp
Steven - MUCH to not understand. Once a pitcher is entered in the lineup card he must face one batter. 3-1-1.
SO, Zack is in the game as starting pitcher. He did not substitute for anyone so he cannot be an illegal substitute! He batted out of order but he's in the game from the moment his name was on the lineup handed to PU and he's not a substitute.
Zack was in the game defensively, being DH'd for by David in the four spot.. He was then substituted for Charles. Illegal substitute. He did not simply bat or bat out of order, or David would no longer be batting. Both were batting. He took Charles' position.

mbyron Tue Jun 12, 2007 06:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Zack was in the game defensively, being DH'd for by David in the four spot.. He was then substituted for Charles. Illegal substitute. He did not simply bat or bat out of order, or David would no longer be batting. Both were batting. He took Charles' position.
As Bob pointed out in post #3, Rule 2-36-3d says exactly this. A substitute is illegal when he's the player being DH'ed for and enters the lineup in a different position.

If folks don't like or understand this rule, that's one thing, but the rule clearly applies to this case. Normal illegal sub penalty applies.

bob jenkins Tue Jun 12, 2007 08:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
I thought they had a new rule about 8 or 90 years ago that said ejected players couldn't reenter. Maybe it's just me... :)
Yes, sorry. By the time I responded to the follow-up, I forgot Charles had been ejected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoBits
I had a similar situation last week. NBC rules, DH came in to play catcher, and a new pitcher came in to bat for himself in the previous catcher's batting position.

OBR 6.10(b) states:
...The designated hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.
That would be correct under OBR (and NCAA).

newump Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:09am
what if zack had hit a single and was on 1st. then a pitch was thrown to the next batter, david, and THEN the opposing coach realized the error. is zach still out or his at bat legalized since a pitch has been thrown to the next batter?

bob jenkins Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
what if zack had hit a single and was on 1st. then a pitch was thrown to the next batter, david, and THEN the opposing coach realized the error. is zach still out or his at bat legalized since a pitch has been thrown to the next batter?
Still out and restricted.

GarthB Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
what if zack had hit a single and was on 1st. then a pitch was thrown to the next batter, david, and THEN the opposing coach realized the error. is zach still out or his at bat legalized since a pitch has been thrown to the next batter?
No. You still are trying to apply BOO enforcement to an Illegal Sub situation.

He would still be out and restricted.

newump Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:20am
would zach become legal at any point?? how about after he scores and then the mistake is not realized until the following inning??

GarthB Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
would zach become legal at any point?? how about after he scores and then the mistake is not realized until the following inning??
ARRRRRRGH.

mcrowder Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluezebra
David is DHing for Zak, the pitcher. David and Zak are locked into the same spot in the batting order. When Zak enters the game as a batter, he MUST do so in the 4-spot in the batting order, which means David is no longer in the game (but may return, but only in the 4-spot, and for Zak). When Zak, the defensive player who was DHed for, enters the game on offense, there is no longer a DH.

If Zak bats in the 3-spot, he's BOO.

Bob
Except that there IS no player in the 3-spot ... and if both these players are in the game at the same time, it's not a BOO situation, it's an illegal sub situation.

bob jenkins Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by newump
would zach become legal at any point?? how about after he scores and then the mistake is not realized until the following inning??
No, he would not become legal. The run scores in the situation you describe, though.

Read rule 3-1-1 and all the case plays 3.1.1. Case play L is nearly this exact situation.


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