Foul tip hits home plate
 

I was a spectator at a 5th-6th grade level baseball game and clearly saw a batter hit a foul tip. The ball shot straight down from the bat and hit the top edge of home plate to the right of the catcher’s right leg and then bounced approx. 12” further to the right of home plate. The catcher grabbed the ball thinking it was a foul; however the umpire called it a live ball. The player on third base made it home and the batter advanced to first base. I was always under the impression that if a foul tip directly hits home plate it is ruled a dead ball. Please explain.

Take a look at the definition of a foul tip:

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.


This should have been ruled a foul ball unless the catcher somehow managed to glove the ball over fair territory.


Tim.

In the infield, It doesn't matter where a hit ball lands with regards to being fair or foul it is where the ball is first touched or comes to rest.

Before first and third base:
- if the ball is touched over fair territory or comes to rest on fair territory it is a fair ball.
- if the ball is touched over foul territory or comes to rest on foul territory it is a foul ball.

BTW, this is not a foul tip. A foul tip is a ball that is touched by the bat and goes directly to the backcatchers hand or glove and is caught.

BigUmp got in there just ahead of me! :)

A. That's not a foul tip.
B. The plate is completely in fair territory.
C. If the catcher touched the batted ball directly over the plate, that's a fair ball.

For more in-depth explanations, see rule 2.00, "Fair Ball," "Foul Ball," "Foul Tip."

A foul tip is only a foul tip if it's caught by the catcher. Otherwise it is a foul ball...but if it hit home plate...as you're posting...it is a fair ball...sounds like you had a pretty decent ump for your 5th-6th grade game...apologize to him if you jumped down his throat..

FED rules page 21 (2-16, ART 2) a foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly to the catcher's hands and is legally caught by any fielder. It shall be called a strike and the ball is in play. Don't have OBR handy today...and can't find anything in PBUC, but it might be in there.

All within a few minutes of each other...nice job guys...

As Tim just explained, what you saw was a "foul ball," not a "foul tip." The umpire must have ruled it a fair ball. Home plate is part of fair territory, so a batted ball that hits home plate, and does not roll into foul territory, is a fair ball. That is the only way the umpire could possibly ruled in this case, for the Batter-runner to advance to first base and the run to score.

way to go Tim

Response question about ball htting home plate being ruled in play
 

Sorry for my lack of the proper term that I was trying to refer to and thank you all for such a speedy response. So that I’m clear on the ruling; if the lines around the Batter and Catcher box are worn and are not clearly marked, how large of an area around home plate is fair territory, i.e. the diameter of the line around home plate. The reason I ask is because it seemed clear that after the ball hit home plate and bounced up it either hit the batter or the catcher and seemed to roll out of fair territory. I clearly understand that the ball hitting home plate is always fair territory, is it not more relevant where the ball ends up? And if the ball indeed hit the catcher or batter after hitting home plate, is there a ruling there also. I can definitely see how making a call in a split second with so many variables can be very difficult. Thanks again.

Fair territory starts at the back corner of HP and goes in a straight line to the outside edge of the 1st and 3rd base bags and continues to the fence or end of the playing area. If the ball first touched the catcher anywhere in this area, fair ball. If it was first touched outside of this area, foul ball. Batters box has nothing to do with fair/foul except that in most instances a batter that is hit by a rebounding ball while in the box will incur a foul ball. If it strikes the batter in fair territory, then the batter is out.

Hey Ozzy, check it out. He posted again apologizing for the wrong terminology.

The bottom line is that if the ball was first touched in foul territory, it was foul. If first touched in fair, then it was fair. The umpire obviously ruled that it was a fair ball, so in his judgment, the ball was touched by the catcher while over fair territory.

Spectator, the entire plate is in fair territory, and the foul lines extend out from the back point of the plate.

Not only is the question "mute" but it's also "moot"!;)

I only wish I had a mute button for coaches

mute point...i love it

Yeah, it is a bit ironic that Ozzy would criticize using the wrong word...:rolleyes:

mute
adjective
1. silent; refraining from speech or utterance.
2. not emitting or having sound of any kind.

moot
adjective
1. open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point.
2. of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.

I don't know what the diameter of a 5-sided object looks like ... so I'll ignore that.

The point of the plate is the corner of the square that defines fair territory, and the lines of that square extend from that point to the outside edges of the bases - a ball inside that square or touching the line is in fair territory.

A ball that has not been touched (by a player, coach, fence, etc) or come to rest is neither a foul ball nor a fair ball... it is nothing until it either stops or is touched. Then, the location of the ball when it stops or is touched determines whether that ball is fair or foul (unless it's caught in flight, in which case it's merely a caught fly ball over fair or foul territory, and still live).

Your ball hit the plate ... it is currently over fair territory, but is still neither fair nor foul.

You then mention (in the 2nd post, not the OP) that it was touched by the batter or the catcher... this changes the OP completely. If it touched the batter and the batter is still in the box, then by rule it's a foul ball, even if it was in that small corner of the batter's box that is in fair territory. If it touched the catcher, then it is either fair or foul based upon where it was when it touched the catcher (if this occurred directly over home plate - the ball is fair!). The fact that it then bounded a mile foul is irrelevant - it gained it's fair/foul status the second it was touched.

Perhaps your ball hit the catcher directly over the plate and deflected 12 feet foul - then the umpire's call was right - fair ball, play on.

Great catch and StevenTyler did the definitions!

The word mute is also used to describe an attachment used on brass instruments (horns) to muffle them down or lower the presence of the sound.

And that is exactly what I meant in my comment "therefore, your question is mute!".

This is why I love this board! While everyone out there is running in circles to correct a comment, one or two people like SDS sit there and say "What the f*** did he mean?" Bravo Steve - most people read the post and thought "moot"! You at least had the insight to see that there is a method to my madness!

Now, bring on the drugs!

Regards

I think we all knew it was supposed to be "moot" but right now, your point is exactly that, moot.

Only if you didn't get it. Which you didn't. I'll call the press.

"Mute" has also replaced the non-p.c. term "dumb."

That's gotta be one of the mutest things I've ever heard.:)

Like it matters now, Steve. It's all moot. ;)

are you sure about that??

Yea, pretty much.
So, no ... we didn't "all know it was supposed to be 'moot'" - it wasn't.

If only I could be as awesome as some of the people on here and be able to know what other people are thinking...that is AWESOME!

You have proved me wrong.

Not in the statement I made above. But in the other thread where I mention 3 people being on ignore making my life better. It's 4. I'm sure you'll miss me.

Today is my 51st birthday! Happy birthday to me!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/13/13_10_9.gif

Steve, my 52nd as well!! Happy BD to us...

You say it's your birthday

It's my birthday too, yeah!

You say it's your birthday

We're gonna have a good time!

You say it's your birthday

Happy birthday to you! --The Beatles

Hah!!

What a couple of old farts!

I won't be 52 until August. ;)

JM

Enjoy the 52 club - I'm leaving to join the 53 club in October

Staring me in the face is 55!

Heading rapidly toward that 59 mark.

Wow! I didn't realize I'd been communicating online for almost two years with such a distinguished group of old b@stards!


Tim.

Joey from the TV show 'Friends' thought it was a "MOO (not moot) POINT" because "...no one cares what a cow thinks..."

I'm astonished that they can figure out their computers... :D

Unlike you guys, my parents taught me to respect my elders! ;)

Michael,

There are only 10 kinds of people: those that understand binary, & those that don't. :cool:

JM

he he he... ha ha.... HA HA HA!!!!!

That's a good 1!

LMAO

Yeah, this here XP with the dual Intel Processor is a far cry from that old 8088 with the 4 disk drives, the screaming 256kb of RAM and the green phosphorous tube display! Back then, the new kid on the block was the Disk Operating System -- can you say DOS 1.0?

Regards

Why do I feel like I'm at an AARP convention?

Have they ever heard of DOS???;)

"backcatchers"

Where does the "front catcher" play?

Bob

You're all youngsters. I turned 75 in April. I saw my first game at Wrigley Field (Chicago) the year BEFORE there were bleachers or ivy on the outfield wall.

Bob

75???? I worked with a partner a few years ago who was 85.

Anyone remember the Timex-Sinclar "Computer"? Plugged into your TV and you used a cassette recorder to save your data. Programmed in BASIC. And yes, I know what DOS is....uno, DOS, tres....

Did the 85 year old partner set up his lawn chair behind the pitcher or was it permanantly located in 'A'?? :)

Shameless self-promotion......

Glad you noticed.

I worked with an 82 year old gent this season in a varsity game. Had to stop the game on several occasions after he was hit with errant pitches and foul balls in the upper torso (his CP looked older than me - DOB 1961).

Was also run over twice on plays at the plate and was hit with two balls thrown to the plate because he decided to take the calls in fair territory.

Also, there was that new mechanic he employed of a non-verbal, emphatic point foul call and his verbal fair call.

A few years ago I worked with a very senior association member who, in the past had been a Pac10 crew chief and who had worked, years ago, with Jocko Conlan.

He wore a raft behind the plate, missed maybe two pitches, trailed the B/R to first, made all rotations and still had text book mechanics.

Age is not the defining issue. Performance is.

No doubt.

In our association we have several veterans who are 70+, and having worked with some of them in recent years and hearing from other board members who have worked with them, their skills set have not followed them into the twilight of their umpiring careers.

That said, I have worked with lousy umpires who are my age and considerably younger.