ESPN: "Are ejections getting out of hand?"
 

Ozzie Guillen gets tossed Sunday (this White Sox fan says thank God, BTW). Grady Little gets tossed Sunday. Lou Piniella gets tossed Saturday and is suspended indefinitely. Joe Torre gets tossed Saturday.

On Sportscenter Sunday following the Yankess-Red Sox game--gee, a Yankees game on ESPN, what a shock--the Eastern Seaboard Propaganda Network ran a segment about MLB ejections and how they are getting out of hand. Of course, blowhard John Kruk blasted MLB for suspending indefinitely Lou Piniella, saying all he did was argue and that that was fine.

Whatever.

Gotta love ESPN, eh? :rolleyes:

And today Piniella admitted that the call he was arguing was actually correct....... go figure.

I don't think MLB has a problem with arguments and ejections. But I think they want the out of control behavior that Lou and that idiot MiLB manager demonstrated to be part of the past.

But as the gods at ESPN said, the umpires are getting out of hand with their ejections.

I tossed 2 players and a coach Saturday (same team) and eventually called the game a forfeit, second forfeit in my time. Seemed warranted to me at the time and still does. What is really interesting is the team was winning 15-0 at the time so why they wanted to show their *ss and get the game forfeited I don't know.

The only one on Baseball Tonight who thought Sheffield's ejection wasn't warranted was that ex-rat tub of goop Kruk. They kept trying to explain to him that Sheffield got run for throwing the bat handle at the umpire. Kruk just couldn't believe that Sheffield deserved to be run. What can we expect from such a rat (once a rat, always a rat).

"Of course, blowhard John Kruk blasted MLB for suspending indefinitely Lou Piniella, saying all he did was argue and that that was fine."

Let's see. Pinella was giving his imitation of George Blanda, kicking his cap instead of a football, all over Wrigley Field. Not to mention kicking dirt on the umpire. What, if anything, was Kruk watching?

Bob

Think we'll see Krukkie admit that what he was arguing was actually incorrect?

Most of the time that managers argue - the call was correct anyway.

MLB umpires are very good and just don't miss too many calls.

As far as ejections - as the temperature gets hotter, so do the tempers. Happens every summer. Something about the heat brings out the wrath of players and coaches.

Also remember, coaches/managers don't always argue because they thought the call was wrong - most of the time it has something to do with other calls earlier in the contest from another umpire or they are frustrated with the PU's strike zone etc.,

Finally they get a close call and they go after the "umpire that made the call", but in reality they are either frustrated with the game or their players.

Thanks
David

Piniella got run for THROWING HIS HAT. How automatic is that at ANY level of baseball?

I kind of got the feeling Pinella was looking for an excuse to get tossed. I think possibly he wanted to get some heat off his players and onto him. They all deserved to go over the weekend IMO. Maybe ESPN should have titled it "Are Coaches Out of Control"?

Because it probably wasn't "Silent Lou" arguing...I'm guessing there were some not-so-family-friendly words exchanged and Lou needed to go.

I thought that his nickname was "Sweet Lou." Perhaps you're thinking of President Coolidge?

You missed my point. His throwing the hat made the rest of it irrelevant. Hat thrown = gone. The rest is just Lou being Lou.

No...I meant Silent Lou. I meant that he didn't go out and kick dirt and leave. Some not so nice words were exchanged, leading to his running himself.

Arrgh! The first thing he did was throw his hat, which led to his immediate ejection.

Maybe you didn't see the ejection, or understand what Rich is telling you. Sweet Lou threw his hat and was immediately ejected.

THROWN HAT = EJECTION. Okay?

He was not tossed for arguing or kicking dirt. All that occurred AFTER he threw his hat and was ejected.

I KNOW THAT.

IF you read my post, it was a response to mbyron, who thought I had confused Piniella's nickname. I said that I didn't. I don't know how you are all reading a response to poster A (byron) as a response to poster B (Rich).

Can we just stop attacking me and get back to ridiculing ESPN for employing that fat slob Kruk and their merry band of idiots who are running their mouths?

I like Kruk. And what's his being fat have to do with anything? I mean, he once told a lady that he wasn't an athlete, merely a baseball player. Of course, he was one of my favorite players when he was with the Phillies.

Kruk plays a role, just like the umpires.

I'm responding to this statement you made: "Some not so nice words were exchanged, leading to his running himself."

Since that wasn't the case, it seemed pretty clear you misunderstood the ejection.

Yep. And apparently the pay for fat buffon is pretty good these days.

OK, his being fat has nothing to do with it. But he's fairly incompetent when it comes to analyzing baseball. Some of the things he says make absolutely no sense, like when he said a 40-year old Randy Johnson would win 30 games with the Yankees in 2005.

It's a shame that ESPN, the "Worldwide Leader in Sports", offers such awful coverage of baseball. It leads to a lot of the problems we see with coaches & players' behavior, not understanding the basics of the game, and such a stubborn refusal to look at anything other than 'intangibles'.

The thing is, I think it's unrealistic for a 20-year player to all of a sudden not be a rat.

Ooh, Phillies start in 10 minutes. Chalk up another advantage to working from home.

The replays they showed on ESPN never actually showed Lou getting dumped...so my thinking (and I think you can understand it, even if it's wrong) was that Lou came out, threw a "You f!*%ing suck!" at Mark, got tossed, and had his reason to go crazy. If we threw it as soon as he got out there, he definitely had to go.

You mean they didn't give him "his" warning first? :) Extreme sarc

ex-rat tub of goop.

Isn't that bigotry against overweight people? Plus, he did lose weight the Nutri-System way.

www.nutrisystem.com

I absolutely hate that guy. Sick as it is, I'm hoping they trip too. I don't think we need cameras everywhere....let's let the guys play balls and keep the cameras to a minimum.

Espn has some excellent baseball guys in the studio IMO. Soup, Gammons, and Tim kurljian are all good at analyzing games. They also had a former player who did an outstanding job of color commentary, play by play and in studio work in Herald Reynolds but he messed that up himself. I also think that Joe Morgan does a nice job. I hate the fox crew! I despise Tim McCarver and I could live without Buck also (though he's better the McCarver) The best thing McCarver ever did was get soaked 3 times from Dion Sanders in their locker room.

First things First

ESPN like other broadcast companies are "in it" for the ratings ONLY. Generally speaking Baseball does not have good TV ratings. Baseball is a Regional sport meaning the Yanks / BOSOX series will have excellent ratings here in the East but what about the rest of the country whereas a football game between the Colts vs. the New England Patriots will have a national Audience.

Therefore, ESPN will print any headline that can "tweak"the fans to get some ratings.

Also, there are no former umpires in the ESPN booth so one will get the kinds of remarks that you see/hear. Let's say you did have former major league baseball umpires present and asked them how did they feel when a manager kicked dirt at them etc.

In a nutshell in major league baseball it's all "part of the Show"

The problem is for us amateurs when managers think they can act like they see on TV.

Pete Booth

I am overweight. Kruk is an ex-rat tub of goop. What did he do, eat triple portions?

Huh???

It is a competition between Joe Morgan and Tim McCarver as to who is the stupidest human being on the planet.

Sheffield did not deserve to be run. His toss of the shattered handle of a bat was nowhere close to the umpire. Sheffield will win on appeal if anyone bothers to look at the replay.

my, my, jealous?

Huh?

Morgan and McCarver forgot more than you ever knew.

Ron Luciano was once an analyst on network tv.

Problem is with umpires as color men on TV, they cannot tell the aneccdotes that are the funniest, since it is a family event.

Truth be told. Umpires make better story tellers than ex-players.....but have no star power.

Ha! Good one! For a minute I thought you were being serious about these two clueless morons. Whew!

Thanks,

Let me know when you get hired.

The fact I have brain cells precludes me from being hired as an ignorant, clueless announcer, as these two morons are.

Go hang out on the coaches' boards with your fellow rats, because no one who is a real umpire would ever state that McCarver and Morgan had even an ounce of intelligence.

You might want to check out these:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...ver#post402148

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...light=McCarver

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...ver#post390018

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...light=McCarver

You either don't listen to these moron expound on rules, or you are as ignorant as they. Any 13 year old who has actually read a rule book knows more about the OBR than these two. Proof? Just listen to them attempt to explain a rule.

Of a fat buffoon? Hardly.

You obviously don't know me very well.

I did see the replay and I thought he deserved to be run. Evidently so did an MLB Umpire, which is why there is even a debate about this in the first place.

www.firejoemorgan.com

Not your typical "fire so-and-so" site. They readily admit they're not really trying to get Joe fired. Rather, they just exist to critique and analyze members of the media who say "dumb" things. It all started with this group of guys because they realized, in watching games, that Joe tended to say one dumb thing after another...which really annoyed them.

This site actually does a very, very good job of analyzing the statements of columnists and broadcasters by producing hard evidence to show that they are wrong (or right!...yes, they sometimes give "props" to people).

Anyways, this site has made it as plain as black and white: Joe and Tim are idiots.

Next you are going to tell us that the New York Times is "in it" to sell newspapers.

I've been trumpeting this site for years on other boards...these guys are hilarious and reduce baseball to such a simple level it's incredible, all the while pointing out how ridiculous the media is for its overinflation of certain players (ie Eckstein, Jeter)

Indeed. Took you 24 hours to come up with that? Weak.

Hey, Morgan and McCarver know very little about the rules of baseball. Once in a while Morgan gets lucky and manages to get one right, but McCarver very, very rarely knows any except the most basic funadamental rules, and even those he butchers with regularity.

Yes, they played major league baseball, but that does not make them baseball experts. Most of us did play baseball too, and our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience. Those who have little or no umpiring experience typically do not know the rules to the degree that we do.

Wow. Made the ignore list in record time. Say hi to BigGuy and Dave the Rat when you see them.

Ignore list. I've got to learn to use that more often, Garth. ;)

We put up with this troll for a while over on the basketball forum too. No difference. He'll go away.

To all who thing Joe doesn't know baseball.
 

I'm not defending Joe or Tim's rule knowledge, but to say"... our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience"is IMO way too conceited an attitude.
An umpires knowledge of the rules is undoubtedly much higher, but there are many facets of the game and the rules are just one of them.
So define what you mean by "baseball experts"

There are pitchers that can watch a batter take practice swings and see the hole in their swing. I can't, so relative to the intricacies of pitching he is on a higher level than me and most of the rest of us umpires. There are batters that can spot tell tale signs from the pitcher and know what pitch is coming, sometimes as subtle as leg kick to belt buckle curve ball, leg kick above belt fast ball. I can't, so relative to spotting the idiosyncrocies (sp) of a pitcher they are on a much higher level than I am and I dare say most of us.
There are so many nuances to this game that no one is an expert in all areas, but when you play the game at the level Joe Morgan did for so many years I have a hard time thinking that just because I know the rules better means I'm on a higher level.
I'll bet Joe Morgans overall baseball knowledge far exceeds the vast majority of all umpires. His ability to transfer that knowledge, whether announcing is the right forum to communicate that knowledge and whether you like his style is another matter.
Let's not be like the rats and make irrational statements and think more highly of ourselves than deserved.

Thanks for bringing logical perspective to this argument.

As umpires we always cringe when players, coaches, fans, and broadcasters misunderstand or misapply a rule. But to call hall of fame and all star players "morons" when they make rule mistakes as broadcaters begs the question as what should we be called when we do the same thing?

After all it is our job to know the rulebook and the postion from which to make the best judgement on a play.

We have chosen to live a big glass house.

It serves no useful purpose for us to throw stones at those whose jobs require much more knowledge of the game than ours, unless of course, we are perfect in our profession.

I honestly don't think that Joe or Tim have any more knowledge of baseball than I do. And if I was a commentator, I wouldn't say false things about players the way they do about rules.

So, Tim and Joe, here come the stones.

Wow.

Can you just hit the highlights of your major league all star appearances?

Wow. Playing the game at its highest level still does not give one any more knowledge of the game than does just having played the game at lower levels for many years. It just means that you were better at playing it. It is certainly not an indication of their rule interpretation abilities.

The only advantage Morgan, McCarver, or any other player or former player has is that they have more stories to tell.

Baseball is baseball, and the strategy varies little from the game I played until I was 30, and the game the big leaguers play. It's just the skill level that is extremely different.

I'll hit all my MLB All-Star appearance highlights when Joe and Tim match my umpiring experience. Joe Morgan claims he worked some ball while going to college, but you couldn't prove it by me.

What the hell does that have to do with "knowledge" of anything?

Explain how being a great ball player makes you knowledgable about baseball? Or not being a great ball player makes you less knowledgable. I sit down every night and watch my Yankees play (you can PM me if you want to flame me for being a Yanks fan) and see things going on in a game that the announcers don't discuss. I also don't see things that the announcers do discuss. Baseball is a complicated game, always stuff going on.

Tonight, A-Rod hits a lined shot to the wall, trots to first, then finally shifts gears but is called out at second. U1 inexplicably did not cut in on the play (U3 went out, U2 to third). A-Rod starts to whine, umpire says something and walks away, and then A-Rod yells something more. Umpire comes back in on him and they argue some. 1st base coach gets A-Rod to the dugout.

Dummie Paul O'Neill talks about how the call was wrong, A-Rod did what he had to do to get second, and the umpire was wrong for arguing back.

Guess 2,000 some hits really makes you understand baseball from the whining perspective, which I don't think most fans want to listen to.

Off soap box.

There's a reason why the late Bart Giamatti once said that the smartest people on the field are the umpires.

wow.

How many world series games have you umpired?

Explain how being a great ball player makes you knowledgable about baseball? Or not being a great ball player makes you less knowledgable.


Well, gee. If you had a chance to talk baseball in Heaven with Ted Williams or Rudy Regalato, who would you choose?

Let me know when you are hired by Fox or ESPN. I am dying to hear your take on how major league umpires could take three innings to decide that a run scored before the final out of an inning, on a non-force, actually counted.

An anxious nation awaits.

Wow.

So we have gone from how many All Star appearances someone has made as an MLB player (zero), to how many World Series games they have umpired (zero). Those two zeroes must invalidate everything about them.
Is there just no possibility for someone to be better or smarter than someone who is higher in rank???

Say what...............
 

U1 inexplicably did not cut in on the play (U3 went out, U2 to third).

Now what MLB crew butchered a play this bad that Paul O'Neill is such a dummie.

BTW-What umpire called A-Rod out at second? Sounds like no one was left at the base.

Not to worry. When the Rocket launches this Saturday against the lowly Pittsburgh Pirates, I sure the Yanks will be able hold off the surging Devil Rays for fourth place in the AL East. Third is even possible if the mightly Baltimore Orioles lose a middle reliever and the Toronto Blue Jays have to trade their back up catcher so they can bring up a set up man from Double AA.

Off soap box.

Guys, please....

Give those of us who got rid of the pianoman a break. Feel free to bicker with the troll if you want, but stop using the quote feature so we don't have read his garbage.

What goes on the ignore list, should stay on the ignore list.

Don't worry about me. He joined PWL/Tyler there tonight.

Hey, the good news is that when he's over here, he's not trolling on another forum. He ain't up to multi-tasking. We had this particular clown over on the basketball forum for a while too, infesting the place. Don't let him get to you. He's kinda like jock itch; mildly irritating, useless for anything, but relatively harmless. He'll leave when he figures that there's no more umpires left to piss off.

Hall of famer, Jim Palmer used to do some local TV. He butchers rules all the time and always disagrees with the Umpires. Drives me crazy!

I don't know - Ted Williams managed for four years and compiled a record of 273 wins, 364 loses, .429 pct. Yeah, we know he could hit but did he understand anything else about the game?

If a troll posts in a forum and no one can read it, does it make a sound?

Going way off track here: But to be fair to Ted, he managed the worst team in the majors, the Senators (second version). Nevertheless, he managed the Senators to their ONLY winning record during their entire stay in Washington in 1969.

He also, while retired and managing, put on the greatest pre-game hitting clinic Ron Luciano ever saw (according to one of Luciano's books).

O.k. I'm done with this sidetrack.

Tuss,
Here's a challenge.

Pick out the best high school coach in your area.
Now imagine spending one season as his assistant. Do you think you'd learn anything about the game? Or do you already know everything he does?

Now pick out the best division 1 coach you can think of.
Now imagine spending 1 season following him around. Do you think you'd learn anything about the game? Or do you already know it all?

Now imagine spending 9 years playing for a hall of fame MLB manager, multiple world series winner and throw in a couple coach of the year awards for good measure, let's say someone like, I don't know, say Sparky Anderson. Do you think you'd learn a little bit about the game or do you already know everything he does?

So throw the stones if you like but I'm telling you you're statement is born from ignorance.

Steve, I guess it depends on how you define expert.

If I was going to send my son for hitting lessons and I had a choice between Joe West, Joe Morgan or a 50 yr old great veteran umpire that played rec ball till he was 30, after much deliberation I'd probably pick Morgan.
If I wanted to learn about the strategies and secrets of infield play I'd pick Joe Morgan over Dana DeMuth.
If I was picking a mentor for my son, the catcher, and I had a choice between Tim McClelland and Tim McCarver I'm sorry I'd be picking McCarver.
If I wanted an indepth education on the nuances and strategies of the game of baseball I'd pick any MLB manager or player over any of the MLB umpires.

If I wanted to improve my umpire skills I'd pick any MLB, MiLB, NCAA, or Fed veteran umpire over any ball player or coach.

I agree that most Fed and above umps know more about the rules than do Tim and Joe, but that's as far as it goes.
McCarver was successfully calling pitches for many years. He had to know hitters and tendancies, he had to adjust to batters as the game progressed and new pitchers came in, he was the field manager. You don't have a successful 20 year career in MLB as a catcher and be a dummy.
It's just like the NFL, you don't have to the brightest bulb on the team if you're playing nose tackle as long as you have great athletic skills, but skills will only get you so far at QB, eventually you have to show you're capable of grasping the mental side of the game.

Like him or not, he knows more about the game than 99.9% of the crowd.

If I want to take batting lessons, I would go to Tony Gwynn. And, I took Coaching Baseball in college from renowned D-1 coach Jim Dietz of SDSU (before Tony Gwynn). All that on top of playing for X number of years. I readily admit that I can't hit like Tony Gwynn, coach like Jim Dietz, or play at any level resembling a major leaguer.

I played Varsity golf in HS, make custom golf clubs, and have a great knowledge of the sport of golf. Yet I can't come anywhere close to playing at Tiger Woods' level. But I could do a better job of broadcasting golf than Brent Musberger for sure.:rolleyes:

But the subject here to start with was baseball rules knowledge, and the lack thereof on the part of Morgan and McCarver (and let's throw in Jim Palmer and Harold Reynolds while we're at it). These guys know how to play baseball better than we ever could, but they are horrible as broadcasters, because they don't study the rules of the game to the same degree as we do. They can be great color commentators, but then they open their mouths and just spew out nonsense when it comes to the rules. It has been well documented. I'm not making anything up here.

As long as we stick to the subject, which was rules butchering by Morgan and McCarver, we all must agree that these two know less overall about baseball than we give them credit for. I don't think either knows more about the game itself (not talking about specialized areas, such as batting or catching) than the average person who has played the game. They just played it better, and at a much higher level.

SDS - I think the relevant point you made here is that although both Morgan and McCarver played for many years and were good at their respective positions, and their color commentary analysis about the finer points of the game is ok, the fact is when they start to quote rules is the time they need to shut up and go to a different topic.

It has nothing to do with playing, coaching , managing or teaching. They just never bothered to learn the rules the way umpires do. As far as either of them coaching is concerned, if they were that good they would be coaching now. Coaching isn't about knowledge and understanding - it's about taking that knowledge and imparting it to a player - verbalizing and/or demonstrating. Not everyone can do it, just like not everyone is cut out to be an umpire.