Delayed CheckSwing Appeal

[tibear]

Situation: bases loaded and 1 out, count 3-2. Batter apparently pulls back a checkswing on the pitch and the PU awards base on balls.

As the runner from third is jogging from third the catcher casually walks 8 feet up the third base line and tags the runner as they pass, then turns to the plate umpire and wants to appeal the last pitch to the BU for possible strike three call.

Would you allow the appeal and subsequent double play??

This was brought up on another site and I indicated that I wouldn't allow the appeal because there had been too long a delay between the pitch and the appeal. As well, the tag of the R3 was not part of the original play(pitched ball) and I would interpret that as another "play" had taken place and the defence had lost it right to appeal.

How long should the runners remain on their TOP base before ensuring their advance is really without jeopardy of being tagged out as a result of a checkswing appeal??

Comments??

[GerryB]

Avoid the whole mess. I know it is not the question you asked but preventative umpiring....
PU should instantly, on his own, check with BU on the checked swing.

I don't believe the rules support your other interpretations. I have, as BU, ruled no swing in such a situation simply because my $^#?! partner's bad mechanics put the runners in jeopardy; an opinion I did not share with anyone except my partner and then after the game.

[Kaliix]

I agree with the preventative umpiring recommendation. If you don't immediately check with your partner in a situation like that, my opinion would be that any intervening play eliminates the chance for an appeal. As it is only my opinion and I cannot support it by rule (presently), it very well might be wrong.

In that situation though, I am not letting a smart catcher wait to tag the runner from third before appealing the check swing so he can get an easy double play.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by tibear

Situation: bases loaded and 1 out, count 3-2. Batter apparently pulls back a checkswing on the pitch and the PU awards base on balls.

As the runner from third is jogging from third the catcher casually walks 8 feet up the third base line and tags the runner as they pass, then turns to the plate umpire and wants to appeal the last pitch to the BU for possible strike three call.

Would you allow the appeal and subsequent double play??

This was brought up on another site and I indicated that I wouldn't allow the appeal because there had been too long a delay between the pitch and the appeal. As well, the tag of the R3 was not part of the original play(pitched ball) and I would interpret that as another "play" had taken place and the defence had lost it right to appeal.

How long should the runners remain on their TOP base before ensuring their advance is really without jeopardy of being tagged out as a result of a checkswing appeal??

Comments??

There's an advanced (I guess it's advanced) mechanic that I use in this situation. Of course talk it over with your partner(s) before the game.

Since you can bet the farm that the defensive coach will appeal a check swing (ball call) on a 3 & 2 count, especially with bases loaded, the BASE UMPIRE automatically indicates “Yes, he did” if that would be his response when appealed. This saves a lot of problems in this type of situation and on uncaught 3rd strikes that the batter attempts to check swing.

But, in your situation, if I were the BU I would not have changed the call.

PU to me: “Al, did he go?”
Me: “NO”
Judgment call, no problems...play ball

[tibear]

I'm not going to appeal immediately to my partner on every 3-2 checkswing ball call I make. What if you did this 5 times a game? It would look like I can't make up my mind about whether the batter ever went or not.

If I didn't think he went I'm balling the pitch and I'm not going to make it look like I want my partner to make the call for me.

Unlike some other instances where I might go immediately to my partner for help, this shouldn't be a situation where my view is blocked and I couldn't see the whole play.

What do others think??

[Toadman15241]

Originally Posted by tibear

I'm not going to appeal immediately to my partner on every 3-2 checkswing ball call I make. What if you did this 5 times a game? It would look like I can't make up my mind about whether the batter ever went or not.

If I didn't think he went I'm balling the pitch and I'm not going to make it look like I want my partner to make the call for me.

Unlike some other instances where I might go immediately to my partner for help, this shouldn't be a situation where my view is blocked and I couldn't see the whole play.

What do others think??

I think it looks worse if the situation in the OP happens because you don't immediately go to your partner.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by tibear

Would you allow the appeal and subsequent double play??

This was brought up on another site and I indicated that I wouldn't allow the appeal because there had been too long a delay between the pitch and the appeal. As well, the tag of the R3 was not part of the original play(pitched ball) and I would interpret that as another "play" had taken place and the defence had lost it right to appeal.

Huh? A request for help on a check swing is NOT, by definition, an appeal (at least not in NCAA and OBR). Therefore, there's no such thing as "another play having taken place." You have opened yourself up to a protest with your "interpretation."

[3appleshigh]

If your big problem is that it looks like you can't make the call, MAKE THE CALL, then step out and ask for help. Tell anyone who cares, the catcher asked for an appeal on that. By doing this, the runners will stay put, and not be in jeopardy. Otherwise based on the stich, you have two outs and I don't know how many ejections.

p.s. I know in fed you do not have to, but everywhere else As I understand YOU MUST grant the appeal.

[bob jenkins]

I'd grant the request and rule accordingly:

OBR: There's a specific note in the rules that the baserunner must be alert to the possibility of the call being changed. The runner is out.

NCAA: Same as OBR.

FED: Call the BR out, but put R3 back at third -- this was an umpire's call that was changed and put one team at a disadvantage.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'd grant the request and rule accordingly:

OBR: There's a specific note in the rules that the baserunner must be alert to the possibility of the call being changed. The runner is out.

NCAA: Same as OBR.

FED: Call the BR out, but put R3 back at third -- this was an umpire's call that was changed and put one team at a disadvantage.

Bob, in OBR, if you were the runner, how long would you wait until you were sure there wasn't going to be an appeal? Theoretically speaking could the runners stand on base for 2 full minutes and then start to go to their next base and then the catcher tags the runner and only then appeals the checkswing? I would hope no BU would ever overturn the "ball call" but if they did you would let the play stand?

If the BR reaches first and none of the other runners are moving because of this situation would you call time and then instruct the runners to move?? Not sure if this is legal but does have precedent with hit batsman.

I'm simply having trouble accepting the fact that the defense can delay the appeal as long as they want and the only answer I'm getting is for an umpire to basically appeal his own call to BU.

[Kaliix]

I knew I shoulda looked up the interpretation before answering. I was wrong. What Bob said above...

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by tibear

Bob, in OBR, if you were the runner, how long would you wait until you were sure there wasn't going to be an appeal? Theoretically speaking could the runners stand on base for 2 full minutes and then start to go to their next base and then the catcher tags the runner and only then appeals the checkswing? I would hope no BU would ever overturn the "ball call" but if they did you would let the play stand?

If the BR reaches first and none of the other runners are moving because of this situation would you call time and then instruct the runners to move?? Not sure if this is legal but does have precedent with hit batsman.

I'm simply having trouble accepting the fact that the defense can delay the appeal as long as they want and the only answer I'm getting is for an umpire to basically appeal his own call to BU.

First of all, it might help if you stop thinking of this as an "appeal."

[UmpJM]

UMP25,

It is an "appeal"; it's just not an appeal of a baserunning infraction.

9.02
...
(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.

The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing.

...

JM

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

UMP25,

It is an "appeal"; it's just not an appeal of a baserunning infraction.



JM

No, it's not an "appeal." What you quoted is a misuse of the word "appeal."

There are 4 types of appeals:

1. Batting out of order
2. Batter-runner overrunning first base and not "immediately" returning (an arcane, dusty type of appeal).
3. Batter missing a base or leaving early
4. Batter missing home and not making an attempt to retouch.

Appeals are an assertion by the defense that a member of the offense didn't do something he should have done. Check swings do not fall under this categorization, and to think they do is what causes so much confusion, especially for this thread's author when he referred to a play occurring after said check swing (never mind his not realizing what continuous action is and how that was what occurred in his situation).

[Cub42]

In the 2 man system, unless BU is in A, and check is on a right handed batter, and unless you were blocked by the catcher, that is a very tough call to make from the inside. That being said, you want your partner to give you what he has. It is the runner's responsibility to know the game situation at all times. The question seems to be how the catcher handled this. It seems to me that he tug the runner first, then asked for an appeal, your partner had enough time to realize what was going on, and by calling a swing was going to create a major s--thouse. These situations call for using your game mgt. skills. It's not what was right or wrong call here, it comes down to how it was handled, and you both come out of this looking bad.