Contact on a Force Play - FED
 

What are you looking for when there is contact between the sliding runner and the fielder with the ball on a force play in order to determine if the contact is legal? I realize this is a broad question.

I've read the various threads regarding FPSR and understand the sliding portion of the rule. However, what is legal in regards to the runner's use of his arms in making contact?

If he's sliding with his hands up in the air in what appears to be a normal slide and the throw makes contact with the arms, is it interference?

If the runner's elbow dislodges the ball from the fielder's glove on the force play , its it interference?

Is contact on a popup slide interference?

As long as the slide is LEGAL and the runner does not deliberately attempt to dislodge the ball from the fielder's glove, I would call it no INT.

Contact on a popup slide is interference because a popup slide is illegal. See FED 2-32-2

ART. 2... A slide is illegal if:

a. the runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide into the fielder, or
b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position, or
c. the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder, or
d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg, or
e. the runner tries to injure the fielder, or
f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

I would keep it simple. If its a legal slide and the throw contacts him you have nothing unless you thought he did it intentionally.

Pop up slide I would call it if he interfered with the play. If he doesn't interfere with the play you have nothing.

Remember baseball can be a contact sport. Just because there is contact does not mean you have a violation of the rules.

Hope that helps

Thanks
David

I agree with the issue on the popup slide. However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation. Interested in your thoughts.

Hmmm,
 

Be very careful with this part of the rule:

"f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases."

The NFHS has noted that a player may slide in a direction "not directly in a line" if that slide is away from the fielder.

So, using pretty good logic, a runner can run or slide AWAY from a fielder and be legal.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

Several coaches teach their players to slide directly to the base which helps. Don't forget the other two parts: 1) alter the play, 2) make contact. You have to factor these into the equation.

Good question. I know what I would do - I would see if he was able to finish the play as he intended.

IOW, you probably would be best to use your judgement. If I think it affected the play call it.

But bottomline, just if there was a little contact I would not call it based on that fact. There has to be some type of alteration of the play.

That's been my interpretation of this type of play.

Thanks
David

Well (maybe)
 

"1) alter the play, 2) make contact. You have to factor these into the equation."

Almost correct but not exactly:

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.

No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

Would you agree about the situation in my post being INT even if not contact?

However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation.

How about this situation: R1, Ground ball to F5 who throws to F4 covering second for the force. R1 slides in to the front of the bag and his foot bounces off the front of the bag and contacts the F4's left foot on top of the bag. No throw is made and R1's natural momentum carries his foot about 6 inches or so past the back edge of the bag. BU calls R1 out and warns him as he leaves the field that he would have rung up the BR if a throw was attempted because contact occurred on top of the bag and his foot passed the back edge of the bag. I personally would not have called this, the slide was direct and on the ground and not even a hard slide, but BU said that if the runner passed the back of the bag even an inch it was automatic.

Leave it alone, that would be an OOO.

Runner sliding in hard, who can tell if someone is an inch over the bag?

Thansk
David

This is not a violation. The rule states "the runner goes beyond the base and THEN makes contact with the fielder." (emphasis added -- it was a clarification made a few years ago because too many umpires were calliong an out in a play such as above when that wasn't the intent of the rule.)

I hope they publish this play in the case book next year to clarify -- especially given on one of these boards many years ago by some hihg-ranking FED official (it might have been Elliot Hopkins, but I don't recall).,

It's a violation only if there's contact -- that's the meaning of "into the fielder" in 2-32-2

Refer to Tim C post

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.
No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

What's the difference between his post and mine - no contact and no altering the play, but his scenario shows INT. Your post and his are not consistent. According to Tim C, any illegal slide on a FPSR situation is by definition INT.

According to 2-32-2a, a popup slide into a fielder is illegal - this is what the OP stated. This infers that there is contact. The rule doesn't specify how severe the contact must be. Tim C situation is 2-32-2f. If his situation is INT, the popup slide HAS to be int, regardless of the fact of contact or altering the play.

If there's a difference, please clue me in because I have read this thread over and over. The only possible thing I can think of is that Tim C is incorrect, and so far no one has shown any inclination in that direction.

Or maybe I'm in a fog this morning because I haven't had enough coffee.;)

Probably. Some slides are illegal if they cause contact -- pop-up, going beyond the base,etc. Some slides are illegal in-and-of themselves -- sliding not into the base and in the direction of a fielder.

Note that of the 6 (or so) "ilelgal slides" in 2-32, some contain the words "and cause contact" (or similar) and some don't.

So - for 2-32-2a (popup) the contact makes it illegal but for 2-32-2f, it's illegal no matter what.

Just so I'm clear a popup slide in and of itself is NOT illegal unless there is contact, right. That being said, does ANY contact AUTOMATICALLY cause the slide to be illegal, regardless of the severity of the contact, similar to sliding not in a straight line to the base, or does the contact severity or altering the play factor into the decision.

Just for my edification - do you happen to have any old case books that reference a popup slide? Unfortunately the 2007 CB only deals with 2-32-2f. Thanks

I don't have time to research it but I'm sure its in the archives. I posted earlier this year about this type of play at second and I had found a great piece that Carl Childress has written that covers all of these types of plays with a great explanation.

Its probably going to be under FPSR because that is what his paper was about.

But as I stated above, just because you have contact doesn't make it illegal.

Look up 2-32-1 and the definition of a legal slide. If you do a legal slide and make contact there is no problem with the runner.

Then go to 2-32-2. If you have an illegal slide then you have to call the FPSR to penalize the offense.
That would be the pop up slide - but to be illegal it says pop up slide "into the fielder."

That was a new addition that is still not very clear in the rule books but is in the BRD and other books.

Hope that helps

Thanks
DAvid

Edited to add that I found the thread, its a good read about these type of plays

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...2&page=1&pp=15

Unfortunately it still doesn't answer my question. In a popup slide situation where there IS contact, is the play AUTOMATICALLY RULED INT or does the severity of the contact or alteration of the play factor into the decision making it a judgment call?

Did he pop up "into the fielder?"

What is the definition of illegal slide? (Hint - 2-32-2a - the last part)

Illegal slide means there is a penalty to the offense ... you take it from there.

As an aside how could he pop up into the fielder and there not be an alteration of the play? The only thing I could think of would be a very slow roller and everyone knows there is no chance for a DP. In that situation you could probably rule that there was no attempt for a DP and thus you could have contact and no FPSR.

Maybe someone else has a case play that would work also ...

Good question though

Thanks
David

It's an illegal slide that causes contact. I'd bang it every time.

That's what I thought -I just wanted some confirmation. Thanks