Balk? Coming to Set...
 

R1. Pitcher is straddling the rubber while he's eyeing R1. At the same time he brings his foot to the rubber, he comes to the set position.

Balk or just odd-looking but legal?

That's a balk.

He must first have his foot in contact with the rubber and then come to the set position.

Similiar to the player who comes to the set, and then separates his hands before stepping back of the rubber.

Thanks
David

In and of itself, this is not a balk.

If, however, you determined that he is doing this to quick pitch a batter, that would be an illegal pitch and a balk under 8.05 (e)

If he is not quick pitching, tell him to take the rubber with his hands apart.

I'm confused.
If the OP is not in and of itself a balk(I disagree) and if he is NOT quick pitching, then why and what right do you have to say anything?

Interesting sitch...I've had the same pitcher twice in Pony League now (Dixie rules)...he straddles the rubber, then when he places his foot on the rubber, he's already in the set position. However, there never has been an instance where he's tried to quick pitch...he probably takes 3 or more seconds before delivering the pitch or making a pickoff attempt, so that's why I've never seen the occasion to balk him - there's certainly nothing inherently illegal in what he does. He's only got a fastball, so that's probably why he doesn't really bother taking a signal. After the game, I've told the coaches they should really work on a standard stretch/set mechanic with this kid...I don't think his current mechanic will serve him very well in the future.

I don't have my books in this classroom but I believe it is 8.01 (b) that describes the mechanics of the set position. However, it lists no penalty for coming to the rubber set.

Traditionally, and as illustrated on Evan's pitching regulations video, this is treated as a "don't do that."

Nowhere in 8.05 is this discussed other than 8.05 (e) which discusses the possibility of setting up a quick pitch, which, if so ruled by the umpire, is a balk.

Based on his user name I would think he is referring to FED.

FROM FED RULES
Rule 6 Pitching

SECTION 1 PITCHING

ART. 1... The pitcher shall pitch while facing the batter from either a windup position (Art. 2) or a set position (Art 3). The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the windup or the set position. He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate. Turning the shoulders to check runners while in contact with the pitcher's plate in the set position is legal. Turning the shoulders after bringing the hands together during or after the stretch is a balk. He shall not make a quick-return pitch in an attempt to catch a batter off balance. The catcher shall have both feet in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch. If a pitcher is ambidextrous, the umpire shall require the pitcher to face a batter as either a left-handed pitcher or right-handed pitcher, but not both.

ART. 2... For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are: (a) together in front of the body; (b) both hands are at his side; (c) either hand is in front of the body and the other hand is at his side. The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any infielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.

ART. 3... For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

Based on 6-1-3 I would suggest action is a balk. Stretch motion is preliminary motion before delivery motion. Rule clearly suggests preliminary motion STARTS with foot on rubber.

Penalty for violations of 6-1-1 thru 6-1-3 are BALK with runners.

This is clearly a balk.
You cannot simulate your pitching motion while off the rubber.
If he is in his set position when he moves his pivot foot to the rubber, then he must have been simulating the set position while off the rubber.
If he is bringing his hands to the set position while simultaneously moving his pivot foot to the rubber, as in OP, then that is the same thing.
This technique used by a sophisticated pitcher is clearly a deceptive move.

Whether or not you call it is another matter, but technically speaking there is no doubt it's a balk.

You are making an assumpition that he was simulating his "motion" off the rubber. There is no indication of that. If he did, that would be the reason for a balk, not for coming to the rubber set.

Coming to the rubber set is not a balk, at least not by rule.

I'm assuming you're talking OBR. I was speaking of FED and it is a balk. (technical balk as it is said)

In OBR, this is under the quick pitch rules, so I would do a "don't do that"

If he continues you could call it a quick pitch and penalize.

Thanks
David

8.05
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate;

If he steps on the rubber already set then he made the motion to get set while not touching the pitchers plate. That is by rule a balk.

edited
The OP said
"R1. Pitcher is straddling the rubber while he's eyeing R1. At the same time he brings his foot to the rubber, he comes to the set position."

Pitcher in this case is clearly beginning preliminary movement while off the rubber. Open and shut case

Show me where:

ART. 3

For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk.

Coming set is not a pitch. They are seperate actions, thus the rule to make a discernable stop before the delivery (with runners). For example, the definition of 'time of pitch' for the set position is 'when the pitcher separates his hands before delivery' (BRD)

So, if at any time, on the mound, the pitcher should join his hands, that's a balk?

Please.

You are defying the rule and common practice. You are, of course, free to do so, but not by falsely claiming that you are enforcing the rule.

So a pitcher is straddling the rubber and goes into his stretch, before coming to a stop he sidearms to F3 without stepping, no need he's off the rubber, and picks off R1. I guess you have nothing but an out?

So are you saying F1 can simulate all preliminary pitching motions up to separating the hands while off the rubber in an attempt to deceive the runner?

~gulp~
 

OOOs would most assuredly call this a balk.

Regards,

And this is what the OP discussed?

Wow I must have totally misread it. Let me go back and check.

(time passes)

Nope, that's not it. nothing there about straddling the rubber. Nothing about going into a stretch. Just something about taking the rubber and coming set simultaneously, which, as we all know, by rule, is not a balk.

Did you have a point?

Is that what you're reading into 8.05g?
I have only spoke to a pitcher simulating his stretch while off the rubber.
You take it wherever you want.

I'm sorry. I thought the set position followed the stretch. Maybe you come set then stretch then F1 in OP was, as you assert, just fine.

BTW

RIF
OP
"R1. Pitcher is straddling the rubber while he's eyeing R1. At the same time he brings his foot to the rubber, he comes to the set position."
My empasis on "straddling the rubber"

No, neither of that is true.

I have no misconceptions of what a balk is. You are the one who described the OP as a balk.

There was no discussion of simulating anything in the OP. You made the assumption that one couldn't come to the rubber set without violating 8.05(g).

You are the one who has claimed that coming to the rubber set is a balk. I'm the one who follows the rules.

My error. No excuses.

Not unless you are saying F1 can't move the ball from the glove to his hand and back (off the rubber) without it being called a pitching motion. ;)

oh contraire
If you are straddling the rubber how can you possibly come set without first stretching?
When you are in the process of coming set, you are in your stretch.
If you are stretching and not on the rubber, I'd have to say that is a simulated stretch since it is not a legal one.

You're conveniently avoiding the question.
It's a yes or no answer
pick one.

Oh, my God. You really don't understand the rule, do you? I thought you were just not thinking straight but would eventually get it. My mistake.

I won't interfere with your illusion any further.

Say, hi to Big Guy when you see him.

It's never that easy.


The proscription for an illegal quick-pitch requires a pitch to be thrown. That isn't the case here.

F1 cannot take signs off the rubber. The OP says nothing about taking signs, he says he comes set. So, that's out.

You appear to argue that the action of stepping on the rubber and coming set in one act, by itself constitutes 'simulating a pitching motion' and is balkable. This is where we disagree. If coming set were the start of the pitching motion, that is where the rules would state the time of pitch begins. It does not.

The rules DO state that F1 must have his hands separated when assuming the set....now here I think we very probably have a violation, as F1's hands probably join as he touches the rubber. The penalty is 'dont do that' in OBR.

Garth isn't the only one not reading clearly.
See post #8

I'm simply arguing the technicality of this being a balk. I specifically left the enforcement issue alone. So if you have any ability to read between the lines you would have realized I was not advocating enforcement.

Just so your name calling doesn't go for naught, what exactly does OOO stand for?

I'm saying you cannot simulate a stretch while off the rubber, nor can you simulate being set while off the rubber. Penalty for both is a balk (with runners on)
agree or disagree?

DM - Just reading this thread and clearly your missing something:

1st: An OOO is an Overly Officious Official - think of Deputy Barny Fife.

2nd: Please read Rule 8 of OBR. I can copy and post it here if you need, I can also copy the J/R interps of what a balk is and what are legal pitching positions.

3rd: It is not illegal to sumulate the stretch while off the rubber. If it is illegal, please post the rule reference. By the way, the stretch is not a legal pitching position. It is only a prepatory postion prior to comming Set (Legal Pitchin Position). Generally, this is accepted that the pitcher is in contact, but he doesn't have to be.

4th: It is not illegal to simulate the set postion from off the rubber. If it is illegal, please post the rule reference. 8.05g specifically states that it is illegal make any motion naturally associated with the pitch from off the rubber. Simulating a Set postion is not a pitch. The time of the pitch begins when the pitcher begins his motion.

If you are simulating a set position from off the rubber how do unsimulate?
You can't step off the rubber and then break your hands, you're already off the rubber, you can't legally make a pitch. So as soon as you break your hands you've started the pitching motion and balked.

If a pitcher is in the set position and moves his pivot foot forward off the rubber with no other movements, do you have a balk, even if his hands haven't broke?
If so, then why is it different if a pitcher is straddling the rubber, simulating the set position and then moves his pivot foot to the rubber?

You can't be off the rubber and fake a stretch and set. It's deceptive and a balk. I think 8.05g includes preliminary pitching motions as well.

If you are not engaged with the rubber and both hands are together infront of the body, then you break your hands, how can this be a balk. The pitcher has done nothing illegal, he wasn't in contact. To pick off a runner, the pitcher has to break his hands and step toward the base. So just breaking the hands is nothing. You have to combine multiple actions that commit the pitcher to pitch, break hands, lift free foot (to deliver pitch), pull arm back to get momentum going forward. The essence of 8.05g is that the pitcher can not simulate the motion of pitching from off the rubber.

There are many things in baseball that are deceptive, but they are not illegal and definately not balks. Baseball is a game of deception.

Take for example the following:

1) The hidden ball trick: So long as the pitcher is not on or astride the rubber, it's legal.

2) The fake throw to pick off a runner: Pitcher disengages rubber, fakes throw to 1st, runner dives, 1st baseman fakes runner by running off to get an "apparent" overthrow, runner takes off for 2nd, pitcher throws to 2nd and gets the runner - perfectly legal.

3) 2nd Baseman or Shortstop, slapping thier gloves behind the runner to distract him.

Back to the discussion, be sure to read the entire rule 8, not just the little tidbits. Get yourself the Jacksa/Roder manual and read up on balks, get the Jim Evans Balk Video and watch it over and over again until you know the rules and can recognize a balk when it occurs.
:mad:

Aye, there's the rub. I disagree, and don't think you can back up your assertion with rules or AOs. So ends my participation in this.

I'm late arriving here but after reading all this bickering I have arrived at this:

Don is right in that you can't straddle the rubber and bring your hands together pretending that you are coming set. That is a motion associated with a pitch, and is prohibited. Merely joining the hands together is not prohibited, but if you think the pitcher is trying to deceive the runner into believing that he is actually on the rubber, then it is a balk. But just transferring the ball in and out of the glove is nothing. And you can step on the rubber with hands together, but if you do, technically you are in the set position at that time, and you can only pitch, step off, or throw to a base.

However, this has nothing to do with the OP. The pitcher was straddling the rubber and was eyeballing R1. Nothing wrong with that. Then, he stepped on the rubber and started his motion all at once. Nothing wrong there, unless he is quick pitching the batter.

Okay, I'm confused. There is R1, and F1 has a technical balk.

It might be an illegal pitch certainly, but the penalty with a runner on is a balk, right?

Or did I miss something?

Thanks
DAvid

I F1 is straddling the mound, with his hands apart, then engages the rubber while his hands are coming together I don't see a thing wrong with that.

If the hands join even before the foot contacts I don't have anything.

The stretch/or motion to come set is optional, just, if a motion to come set, it must be smooth and continuous.

But if the foot engages, and the hands come together or are already together, as long as there is a stop, then F1 is in the set position, and must be very careful about any other motion/s.

I got nothing.

I think, Don, that you are using the terms "straddling" and "stretch" differently than I use them.

There's nothing wrong with straddling the rubbber (except during a hidden ball trick). Many pitchers do so before engaging the rubber.

There's also no requirement to stretch (raising the hands to or above the hands as they are joined, befiore dropping them the whatever position F1 comes set -- in front of the chest, or waist high, for example). Many pitcher just join the hands at the appropriate level.

Most often, these moves are separate -- engage the rubber, then come set. In the OP, F1 combined the moves. It's a violation of "shall have the hands separated when engaging" rule -- a rule for which there is no penalty. It's a "don't do that."

If F1 comes set while completely off the rubber (making the runner think F1 is on the rubber), then you can make a case for "making a motion associated with the pitch." That's not what happened in the OP though, as I read it.

I totally agree. I've never meant to insinuate that straddling is a balk, but just wanted to be clear where F1 was when simulating his pitching motion.

I think there's been misunderstanding on this point. I think that if a pitcher is engaging the rubber and brings his hands together, whether a long and belabored move or short and sweet, the act of bringing the hands together and pausing is considered his stretch. So every pitch from the set position must have a preliminary stretch motion, even if it's as simple as bringing the hands together.
Is there a definitive source that contradicts this?

I also realize that a pitcher can be off the rubber and put his hands together all he wants with out consequence. I've tried to be clear all along to be sure I said simulating the pitching motion or preliminary motion. I think reasonable folks can agree that there's a difference between simulating a stretch and set as opposed to just handling the ball in your glove.

In the OP F1 clearly began his stretch while off the rubber, as breif as it may have been he did begin the stretch, I'm only asserting that technicllay I believe this is a balk. Certainly not one to call, as I alluded to very early on, but IMO a balk nonetheless.

If Evans and J/R say you can simulate a stretch while off the rubber I'll go with it. I doubt that they will.

Thank you.
I've tried all along to make the point that simulating the pitching motion, whether stretch or set is the issue, not the act of fondling the ball in the glove.



Here's where I'm going to nit pick, because that's how this all started, with me nit picking.
He started his stretch while not on the rubber, I believe that constitutes a balk. I don't believe in calling it, but it is a balk.

I was following you all along Don. Its a nit-picky call, but I don't think its something that looked upon very nicely.

If not, then why don't you even see this at the MLB level of ball.

Actually the only place I see this would be in small ball kids who don't know how to pitch yet.

I'm sure if this happened at MLB levels that it would be called a quick pitch or something to that effect.

I've seen it before and treated it as a "don't do it again", but if it was really legal then we would see it at higher levels.

That's my opinion anyway.

Thanks
David

Just so we're all clear - what level are we talking about.
In addition there seems to be some confusion about EXACTLY what happened. Let me describe in detail what my take is on the situation, you correct me if my take is wrong.

1. Pitcher is straddling rubber and his hands are NOT TOGETHER.
2. As he is eyeing R1 - two things are happening AT THE SAME TIME. a) He is moving his foot to the rubber and b) BOTH his hands are moving to come together to the SET POSITION, as he would IF HE WAS DOING HIS STRETCH.

By FED, the stretch is a preliminary motion associated with coming to the SET POSITION. The wording IMPLIES, not states, that stretch is completed with his foot on the rubber since any actions during this time are referred to as with his foot on the rubber.

That being the case - the stretch is part of natural motions associated with coming to SET POSITION and delivering the ball. Penalty for violation of these rules is a BALK with runners.

Whether you call it or not - it's up to you. Some do, some don't, some just instruct. I'm not going to pass judgment on anyone either way. I warn about it then call it, so that they learn. Once they get nailed for it, they won't do it again, which is the entire point - get them to do it right.

As far as OBR is concerned - has anyone EVER seen a MLB pitcher do his stretch while moving his foot to the rubber at the same time. I'm going on 51 and have never seen it at any level above soph HS.

For those who don't want to go back to my earlier post and re-read the FED rules -here they are again, cut and pasted from the book.


Rule 6 Pitching

SECTION 1 PITCHING

ART. 1... The pitcher shall pitch while facing the batter from either a windup position (Art. 2) or a set position (Art 3). The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the windup or the set position. He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate. Turning the shoulders to check runners while in contact with the pitcher's plate in the set position is legal. Turning the shoulders after bringing the hands together during or after the stretch is a balk. He shall not make a quick-return pitch in an attempt to catch a batter off balance. The catcher shall have both feet in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch. If a pitcher is ambidextrous, the umpire shall require the pitcher to face a batter as either a left-handed pitcher or right-handed pitcher, but not both.

ART. 2... For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are: (a) together in front of the body; (b) both hands are at his side; (c) either hand is in front of the body and the other hand is at his side. The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any infielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.

ART. 3... For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.