When does a slide begin?
 

Interesting play and call(s) the other night.

R1, 1 out Fed varsity
Hit to gap in LCF, F7 boots it and R1 comes home. Relay from F6 is on line but low, F2 is in a weird position with both knees on ground and blocking the plate. Throw beats R1 by 5 or 6 steps. As F1 makes catch R1 begins a head first slide, Pete Rose style, he's horizontal and airborne when his left shoulder buries into F2s stomach. F2 topples backward, ball drops to ground, R1 scrambles to plate while F2 tries to catch his breath, BR heads to third.
PU kills the play, points to R1, yells "that's interference" and bangs him out.
HC comes in quickly from his box saying something to the effect 'that can't be interference he slid directly to the base, what else can he do?'
PU puts his hand up and says "hold on Jim let me tell you what I got"
Jim responds "I don't care what you got that can't be interference"
PU listens to Jim, cocks his head a bit and says "You're right" he then turns to R1 who is still standing near the plate and says "That's malicious contact, you're out and you're gone"
Jim is dumbfounded, as am I. I come in from C to make sure R1 gets off the field while Jim and PU have a few more words. Surprisingly Jim stayed in the game.
Unique tactic to agree with arguing coach and then enforce a stiffer call.
But for me it begs the question, when does the slide begin?
If you judge R1 to be in the act of a legal slide then interference or MC should not be called. If R1 is airborne he's not technicallly sliding yet.
What do you think?

Don M.,

While I cannot find anything definitive in the FED Rule or Casebook, this sounds to me like an illegal slide under FED rules.

My rationale is that the runner is "airborne" at the time he makes contact with the fielder who is in possession of the ball. On a "feet first" slide, the runner explicitly must no longer be airborne. I would apply the same principle in this sitch.

Of course, I could be wrong.

JM

This is not a slide at all, but rather a dive. I probably would have had MC at the outset, not after questions from the coach.

Horizontal, airborne, Pete Rose style, contacts F2 with a shoulder in the stomach, and you don't have Malicous Contact immediately???

This is a no brainer. In a FED game Out and out of the game. In Modified OBR (using the slide or avoid ruling), Safe and out of the game. In straight OBR, nothing but a G-thing, baby.

If you're in the air, you aren't sliding. MC all the way.

Throw beat the runner by 5 or 6 steps. At the average distance of 3' to 5' per step (depending upon the running speed), this could be anywhere from 15 to 30'. So the runner was about a third of the way from home plate when the ball got there and then entered into a head first slide late, effectively barrelling into F2.

Malicious contact sounds right, however, not calling it when it occurred and after the discussion began with the offensive coach was poor.

As for when does the slide begin, its a difficult thing. In fed you've got the FPSR where any contact beyond the bag can be viewed as interference if it alters the play.

I'm not a physics professor, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night however, work the time back assuming the player wants to stop on the bag. Example: Runner wants to stop on the bag, their weight (mass), running speed (energy), ground conditions friction for slowing (wet - muddy / dry), Sliding into a bag that is above the ground (will assist in stopping) or home plate that should be flush with the ground (no additional stopping provided), all factor into when the best time to slide is. It could be anywhere from 3 to 10 feet infront of the bag. On a Head first, you would probably want to start a little earlier so you don't jamb your hand or arm back into your shoulder potentially dislocating it or breaking an arm or wrist.

MC should be instantly recognized and instantly punished. In this case, airborne shoulder to the catcher's stomach when he has two knees on the ground sounds like textbook example of MC.

Who says you cannot have MC and a slide? The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Peace

Did anyone say that? This instance, however, clearly was not a slide and therefore had no chance of not being MC.

When would a legal slide result in MC?
I can't think of a situation where that could happen.

My comment stands. When a runner starts a slide has nothing to do with if there is MC on a play. If the runner plowed into a fielder, when the slide starts is not going to change the call. You either have MC or you do not.

Peace

Think MC after the fact. Example, R3 comming home after a wild pitch, F1 comes in, R3 slides and is safe. F1 finally gets the ball beyond HP from F2, and then runner comes up and intentially shoves the pitcher in the back. Haven't seen it yet, but I can imagine it from some players with really bad attitudes.

I asked my P after the game why he didn't call MC right away. He said his first instinct was to keep the kid in the game because he didn't think R1 intended to hit F2. According to my P F2 leaned more into the base line after R1 committed to slide. He was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He changed his mind when the HC complained and didn't give him the chance to explain he was saving R1 from ejection.

Not saying it was right, just tellin ya what my Ps explanation was.

If you have not fit all the requirements of a slide (at the moment of contact), it is kind of hard to have a legal slide at this point do you think?

Peace

Take a foot first slide into a home plate that is completely blocked by a catcher. In a) the runner starts a slide early enough that he is completely on the ground before contacting the catcher and in b) the slide is started late enough that the runner contacts the catcher while still completely in the air, cleats first.

One of these is MC and one is a legal slide and it is entirely due to when the slide started.

Maybe it's depends on your definition of 'plow'

If a runner is executing a legal slide what situation can you come up with where MC is a proper call?
Not saying it can't happen, just can't think of the scenario

Consider a slide that is legal ... until runner brings his foot up and kicks at a glove. Legal right up until the second it turned into MC.

You are coming at this from the wrong point of view in my opinion. All contact is not considered illegal or malicious as it relates to calling the game. The OP says basically that the runner was in the process of a slide but ran over the fielder. So at the time of contact there was no slide. Also all slides are not legal. If you come up spikes high, that is not a legal slide. So when it starts is not the issue. If you run into a fielder without actually sliding, then you can easily have MC. Do not make this more complicated than it already is. It is really not that hard.

Peace

I'm not suggesting that the sitch in the OP was a legal slide.
I was asking in what scenario could you have MC on a runner while executing a legal slide.
The question is base on your earlier post:
"Who says you cannot have MC and a slide? The two things are not mutually exclusive."

If your comment did not assume "legal" slide then I understand.

I don't see that as automatic MC. It could be just an illegal slide. And at any rate it wasn't ever a legal slide because it wasn't all of the way through.

Frankly, I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with me. I'm saying that if a slide hasn't started you can have MC. If a slide is illegal, you can have MC. MC cannot occur during a legal slide.

Could be - but he was trying to envision a legal slide that COULD become MC - this one could.

In my opinion, if gravity had pulled R1 down a few more inches and his buttons were scraping dirt I would have had a legal slide regardless of the consequence of the contact.
In this case R1 was about 1 second or 5 inches from legal

Your post was not suggestive of a legal slide. He threw a shoulder into the catcher. That does not sound like a legal slide to me. Usually a slide means you are on the ground. My comments also were not about what a legal slide is or not. My point is if there is contact like you suggested, what does the start of the slide have to do with the call on the field?

Peace

Damn the torpedoes, my first instinct is to toss a malicious contactor, and then take on anyone who wants to argue about it.

I did not even use the term "disagree" when talking about your post. I also did not debate the issue of the legality of the slide. I simply said if you have a slide you can have MC. The OP stated as if because a slide started, all bets are off. And even if you have a legal slide, it does not preclude you from committing MC. The MC might not be associated with the slide at all. Trust me on this one. I have called MC when a legal slide was committed. But that was not the situation in this OP.

Peace

I guess your P needs to learn a little more self control.

When ever a discussion starts, let the coach say his peace. This gives you time to listen, and compose your response to just the facts, keep it as simple as possible, and supportable from the rules and interpretations.

The game of baseball is a managed conflict between two teams. The umpires are the only ones who are observers, so we need to keep our cool all the time.

Really, I'm not trying to beat the horse

Can you commit MC in the course of executing a legal slide.
If so, how?

Spikes up and being airborne are not legal slides so that doesn't count.

Once again, the OP that you made was not about the issue of the legality of the slide. You only asked about when the slide starts as if the staring of the slide exonerated the runner from causing MC. Secondly the slide in question was not legal.

But for the example I gave the slide and ended and the runner decided to plow the catcher after he legally slide.

Peace

Not in OBR, or the modified versions of it. The result of the play is what counts. The ball got knocked out of the catcher's mitt, and the runner won the race back to the plate. Safe, Time, You're Gone.

In HS games, you are correct that no run could possibly count. The only part of the Malicious Contact rule, or as it is commonly called "slide or avoid" rule, that carries over into OBR-based youth ball games is the ejection penalty.

That is the whole point. Not one person said anything about a MC and a slide at the time you posted this. You definitely can have MC and a slide, it was just never mentioned. The OP was a Pete Rose style dive, its only purpose to knock down the catcher and dislodge the ball. The word slide should not have been used by Don in describing the play. Each poster thereafter realized this, and did not refer to it as a slide.

I see your point, but I don't know of any rule that would allow us to kill the play due to MC alone.

Tim.

I expect, that in the BIGS, if a runner who had just plowed into F5 to make him drop the ball, jumps up and runs home to try to score he would be met by a really pissed off catcher who has lost all interest in the ball and is ready to fight.

Exactly. Some leagues carry a next game suspension for ejections, similar to HS, so the culprit doesn't really get off Scot free.

You really need to stop reading into what people say. I thought it was an important point to make. I did not make the comments based on what others said or did not say. That is not how I roll.

Peace

Maybe you could make that more clear then, since it appeared someone else besides me that you inferred there was a slide involved.

Nobody said there couldn't be MC and a slide either. I read into what people say because words mean things. If I ever stop reading into what people say, the subtle subtexts will all be lost. Straight out of Compton.:)

If you did not like the way I made my statement, why did you respond? I do not recall that I asked you anything.

I guess one of these days you will figure it out. ;)

Peace

When does slide begin????
 

After reading all of the posts I've come to form some thoughts about the situation.

Regarding when does the slide begin - given that a legal slide feet first, according to 2-32-1 requires at least one leg and one buttock in contact with the ground. Logic says that the slide actually would begin on a head first as soon as at least one arm and part of the torso contacted the ground.

Since this is not the case, what we have is a runner diving into a catcher who has the ball and is attempting to make a play. From this you have several issues.

* This is not a slide, but a dive.
* It became a dive when contact was established with F2 while still being airborne.
* The runner does not attempt to avoid contact with the catcher.
* The runner turns a shoulder into the catcher, also showing no intent to actually "slide"

As soon as the runner turned a shoulder, it went from intent to slide into intent to knock ball from F2's position.

Depending on how you want to interpret slide/non-slide, you have to invoke either 8-4-2b or 8-4-2c, with 8-4-2b carrying the automatic interference. In either case the runner is out.

Regarding MC, based on the thread, one could logically think MC occurred. It's still an individual judgment, and I would probably rule that way. It's still one of those HTBT to give a definitive ruling. Obviously PU did not think so immediately but much after the fact, and only after confrontation with the coach, although I don't agree wioth changing the call for that reason. You either call it or you don't, but not because the coach decides to get in you face. Kind of like punishing a kid for stealing a cookie from the cookie jar an hour after the fact.

No, bigguy - a headfirst "slide" is not a slide at all. Your assertion that there is some point where a headfirst dive becomes a slide is simply wrong in all levels except MLB. It's just not a slide ... so the slide NEVER begins.

Why isn't a headfirst slide a slide? You can slide head first under PONY baseball rules, and Little League Juniors, Seniors, and Big League levels as well. The only two instances where headfirst slides are illegal that I can think of are LL Majors and below, and under FED rules. It's not just for MLB.

What you can't do is dive into the catcher, but sliding on the ground headfirst is normally allowed.

Do you have a rule number for this???

I'm quite sure you can slide head first in FED ball.

In fact, Fed rule 2-32-1 clearly states that:

"a legal slide can be either feet first or head first."

Looks legal to me!

:D

You are right. My mistake. So I can only think of one instance where head first slides are illegal!:o