2 outs B or C??
 

I was reading a 2 umpire position manual where it states that with 2 outs and runner's on base that it is acceptable for base umpire to position themselves in position B regardless of the position of the runners.

The belief is that most plays will take place at first base in this situation and being in B gives the umpire a better look at the play. It further explained that the B position gives a good angle for any plays at second and third.

Opinions??

judge your partner, judge the level of play, and read the play, and anticipate where the ball will take you...then get into position. the thought is that since the large majority of plays will occur at 1B that by being in "b" you'll be closer to the play. that being said, you have to do what you feel comfortable doing...

I find that my angle at 1st is actually preferable at C.

Some guys prefer to be in B with 2 outs and runners at either 2nd, 3rd or both, however, I prefer to work in the C. The reasoning is that most of the time outs don't matter, developing this habbit can sometimes be detrimental - especially if forget the # of outs that have occurred. Also, as soon as the ball is hit, you are going to step up, turn, read the play and adjust for the throw to the bag or potentially a tag.

The number of outs have NOTHING to do with an umpires position. Where the runners are on base control your position.

You may want to read a few mechanics manuals before you make this statement.


Tim.

What manual would you be reading? The only two I give credence to say C with R1 and R2. I can move to B for a play at 1B if I need to.

In Canada the only position for BU with runners' in scoring position is C (4 in the baseball canada manual

http://www.baseball.ca/files/manual2.pdf

Canada, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it 1-plate, 2-what we call A, 3-what we call B, and 4-what we call C? SA, I believe this is what I read in their manual.

Being one to go with what I was taught, I never caught on well with some of the new-fangled mechanics over the years.

When I was taught, the only time we used B was when there was R1 only.

Any other runner situation, we were in C.

Somewhere along the way, they came up with B for R1-R3, and for bases loaded. I tried it a couple of times, but we were given the option, so I stayed with C, and just felt more comfortable. I can get a better angle for third, plus it opens a natural angle for throws behind R3 from F2.

You have to hustle more from C to get in position for plays at first, but if you move around properly, it's no problem at all.

I believe D is 5 there.

Two man mechanics.
 

Can you reference which books talk about outs in relationship to basic positioning?

Peace

We stay in B all the time with our HS crews.

I noticed in college game last week that the umpires are using B even with 3 man crew and runner at 1st or 1st and 2nd.

since I haven't done college in a couple of years was just wondering if that was a change since I used to see them in C most of the time.

As for your question, I prefer B.

thanks
David

B with 1st and 2nd? Even in 3 man? Who covers the steal of 3rd, or worse yet there's a double steal? You're liable to get clocked in the head with a throw to 2nd.

You're saying that there is an umpire in A and an umpire in B, and nobody is going to be in position for a steal of 3rd. And please don't tell me about angle over distance, because on a tag play, that doesn't wash.

I don't see how, without a dedicated 3rd base umpire in D or U3 in C, you can get as good a look with an umpire starting from B on a steal.

I'm not saying you didn't see it. It just goes against any mechanics manual or teaching I've ever heard of.

Well, how about we start with the NFHS (FED) Umpires Manual Pages 37 -87? No where does it say, in either 2/3 or 4 man mechanics, you are positioned by the number of outs.

-g

It's not a manual, but the IHSA 3-man mechanics have U1 in B with R2 (or R2 and R3) and less than two outs, but in A with R2 (or R2 and R3) and two outs.

CCA Mechanics give U3 the option of Deep-B or Deep-C with R1 only and a RH batter at the plate.

Thanks Bob, yes he was in deep B. And he made several nice calls in the game from that position.

thanks
David

Hmmmm. Is that the manual that has PU covering third on a bases empty triple? Haven't read it in years.

The CCA manual which we use for high school as well as college games provides the option, in certain situations, to switch to B when there are two outs.

I was watching a D1 game the other day and I saw the crew switch during an at bat based on the situation. Men on 1st and 2nd, they start in the normal A-C, but when the batter shows bunt on the first pitch they switch to B-D. Is this CCA mechanics?

Change ain't bad always
 

Don't know about CCA but that's pretty smart umpiring.

Only my opinion, but I see too many umpires that are bound to a manual, (sometimes because they have no options by their group or association) and they don't use common sense.

We give our guys in HS several options and they can choose their preference.

One is three man, B or C for U3. The other is the options with two out to have B and C or A and B (that's with R1 and R2.)

Hey if i stick around long enough I'm sure all of this is going to change again, probably sooner than later.

Thanks
David

I may be doing this incorrectly but... regardless of outs, I am in A with no baserunners, I am in B with runner on 1st only, runners on 2nd & 3rd, runners on 3rd only, and with bases loaded, and I am in C with runners on 2nd only, and runners on 1st and 2nd.

We now have the metal bat to deal with and unfortuanely the mechanics do not differentiate between wood bat mechanics vs. metal bat mechanics.

I do not know about others but I almost "bought the farm" on a couple of shots off of a metal bat.

Therefore, the answer to your question IMO varies game to game.

Example: let's say we have 2 outs R2 only and a powerful right hand hitter at the plate who you noticed all game long has been pulling the ball. In that case I will move to the 'opposite side" of the batter's power alley meaning I would be in position "B"

Metal bats have not only changed the game for the participants but for umpires as well. I now position myself in a "deeper" B / C position than I would if I were umpiring a wood bat game.

IMO, our safety comes first and for the vast majority of umpires we do not make our living from umpiring and have families to support.

Pete Booth

Tried B (with R1-R3) and never quite felt comfortable with it.
C feels better and I feel like I won't miss a pick off at 3rd. Especially with 14-17YO.

Whatever you do just be sure to discuss with your partner Pre-Game.

In the CCA Baseball Umpire's Manual, the only time U1 is in B in the two man system is with runner on 1B or runners at 1B and 3B. C for every other runner combination

I am fully aware of this fact. My point is what manual suggest a position gives you the option based on the number of outs? I know it is suggested in our (IHSA) mechanics which basically are a hybrid of CCA Mechanics and NF Mechanics what we can do. What we do in our state is no different than any other level or organization telling their officials to use a specific mechanics because someone feels it works. Even Dave Yeast said that what is in the CCA Mechanics book where after all suggestions and not absolutes. But I have yet to see a book specifically say where to stand based on outs.

Peace

So, a very speedy runner pulls a surprise steal of third, and you are left standing on the other side of the field looking like Poindexter? When this mechanic of B with R2 was bandied about in the early 90's, I fought it with all I had. The idea was quickly scrapped due to pressure from other umpires who didn't buy into it either.

I have had some very powerful hitters hit balls in my direction, but I did not change sides of the diamond to avoid getting hit. Tony Clark used to aim at me (at least it seemed like it) because he always seemed to hit wicked shots in my direction no matter where I was standing. He nailed me on the foot when I was in C. It was the only time I've ever been hit working the bases, but he and some others gave me many close calls. I usually deal with a player's power by moving back a bit deeper on the same line.