Back in the day (before the discussion boards, before J/R, before JEA), how did most amatuer umpires learn of rules interpretations? Word of mouth, association training, clinics, etc.

For those experienced umpires, do you feel that access to the above mentioned resources would have sped up your learning curve? Do you feel that today's new umpire with two years of experience is better prepared than his 1970 or 1980 equivilant?

<i> Originally posted by devilsadvocate </i>

<b> Back in the day (before the discussion boards, before J/R, before JEA), how did most amatuer umpires learn of rules interpretations? Word of mouth, association training, clinics, etc.

For those experienced umpires, do you feel that access to the above mentioned resources would have sped up your learning curve? Do you feel that today's new umpire with two years of experience is better prepared than his 1970 or 1980 equivilant? </b>

Eric, the discussion Boards and supplemental materials have helped, but IMO the number 1 reason why today's new umpire learning curve has sped up is do the availability of games.

I know it's taboo here, but referee recently did an article on the decline of officials. Today's new umpire is getting those <i> good </i> games because of the decline which means he / she is getting that much needed experience.

Years ago, there wasn't as many games as we have today. Most of us after HS ball played Sandlot. We played against local neighborhoods, etc. Also, at one time baseball was considered a warm weather sport only - Not so today. I live in the East and our season runs from March to the end of October.

The rise in youth summer / fall programs has also aided the new umpire.

In addition, the discussion boards can also be a detriment as well, especially when you get those threads that go on <i> for ever </i> without adding value to the dialogue. For those of us who have been on the boards for a while, we learn who to trust and who not, but the new umpire doesn't.

All in all, I would say that the increase in the number of games is the main reason why todays new umpires learning curve has sped-up compared to years past.

Pete Booth

I echo what Pete says, mostly. The best way for an umpire to learn quickly is to do games, not read about them.

There's no substitute for experience. When young umpires ask me how they can improve, I tell them to do as many games as they can, at any level offered. You can only learn so much from a book or discussion board.

But when you actually see it happen, it stays with you.

Don't compare apples with oranges
 

Before this thread goes too far, let me emphasize that the point of the thread should not compare "time on the internet" and "actual game experience".

In no way am I trying to compare skill on the field with knowledge of the rules.

What I am trying to compare are things like "When did you learn the force was removed when a runner <b>passed</b> a base, even if the runner did not actually touch it?" Things that are not actually spelled out in the rule book, but can be learned from "authoritative sources", clinics, and discussion boards.

A comparison: I have one season of umpiring under my belt. Joe, a local legend, has been calling games for 20 years. <b>When it comes to calling the game (strike zone, judgement, game management) Joe is The Man!</b> However, Joe doesn't have the internet. Joe has never heard of J/R or JEA or PBUC. Joe says that if a runner in LL leaves early, and tags back up, then there is no violation. Joe says that if you are in the bunting stance and you do not pull the bat back, it is a strike. <b>When it comes to knowing the rules of the game, Joe is........like alot of umpires that have been doing it for 20 years, and have been doing it wrong!</b>

Pete makes a great point. The more games you do, the better you will perform. Who would argue with that?
The more training you have, the better you will perform. Who would argue with that?
The more eductation you have, the better you will perform. The way I see it, new umpires have many more "educational opportunities" today than they did in the past.

Rick Roder made an excellent point (in his interview with eumpire) that 99 times out of 100 plays will be routine. So, for the most part, extensive rules knowledge doesn't come into play during the game. It's balls/strikes, safe or out. But for that 1 time that something unusual happens, the new bred of umpire, with resources at his disposal, will be more likely to get it right than the new umpire of 20 years ago.

[Edited by devilsadvocate on Dec 17th, 2001 at 09:19 AM]

Good points. I have often gone to the Internet and the various discussion boards when a controversial issue comes up that isn't in the rule book.

While I have learned a great deal from the Internet and the discussion boards in particular, there is a gigantic problem with discussion boards that has been discussed before and I don't know how to solve it.

I can ask a question such as "Does it take three strikes to make an out?" and get 67 responses with 67 different answers. Even when it's plain and simple in the rulebook, some don't agree with the rule or believe it should be interpreted differently.

So, in summation, it's hard to learn from the discussion board if the answer to the question isn't already in the rulebook. You get too many different answers, from various "Big Dogs." How do you know which ones to listen to?

No, it doesn't take three strikes to get an out....
 

The batter may hit the ball and the fly ball caught. Or a runner could be thrown out on a force, or he could be tagged out, or he may interfer.....

<b>Your point is well taken.</b>

When I first started coming to the message boards, I was often presented with multiple answers to a question. Over time, I learned which posters had opinions, and which had <b>informed</b> opinions.

I found that having access to "authoritative opinion" (J/R, for example) was the best source of learning. And I would have <b>never</b> known of the book without the internet and discussion boards.

Eric, you said:

"When it comes to knowing the rules of the game, Joe is........like alot of umpires that have been doing it for 20 years, and have been doing it wrong!"

Then you said:

"Pete makes a great point. The more games you do, the better you will perform. Who would argue with that?"

Wouldn't that be a contradiction?

All of the information now available, such as J/R, JEA, PBUC, the WEB, clinics etc are great resources for the new AND old ump, however the defining point is the person himself.

Joe above, doesn't want to get into that and never improves.
He just complains about the politics in his association for holding him back.

The guy that wants to move up, takes advantage of all these resources and moves up the ladder. G.

[Edited by Gee on Dec 17th, 2001 at 01:07 PM]

Re: Don't compare apples with oranges
 

<i> Originally posted by devilsadvocate </i>

<b> Before this thread goes too far, let me emphasize that the point of the thread should not compare "time on the internet" and "actual game experience".

In no way am I trying to compare skill on the field with knowledge of the rules.

What I am trying to compare are things like "When did you learn the force was removed when a runner <i> passed </i> a base, even if the runner did not actually touch it?" Things that are not actually spelled out in the rule book, but can be learned from "authoritative sources", clinics, and discussion boards. </b>

Eric all good points but an umpire <b> may never encounter </b> the aforementioned. In addition, look at all the threads on strictly rules throughout the various message Boards and there is a plethora of answers; some good, some bad and some just plain ugly. Hey wasn't there a movie starring Clint Eastwood, Lee Van Cleef and Eli Wallach.

The best bet for a new umpire is to go to a credited clinic without any bias whatsoever. Learn the various mechancis and pick a plate stance that best suits their needs, then do as many games as possible.

In addition, if one is lucky, have someone mentor you and receiver good honest feedback so that you can improve.

Sometimes the discussion boards spend way too much time on things that lets face it will never happen and then unfortunately the flame-wars begin and even if the thread was very imformative, it's looses <b> it's luster </b>.

The one good aspect of the "theoretical discussions" is to make one at least <i> open up a rule book </i>

An umpires <b> bread and butter </b> is their mechancis and perhaps more importantly their Game Managemet Skills. We need to do as many games (taken into account Work / family) as we can in order to learn and progress.

Pete Booth

Another good point!
 

I've never called a strike from my computer. In front of my tv, Yes, but computer, No.

I AGREE THAT THE BOARDS MAKE FOR SOME INTERESTING READING. SOME ARE EVEN VERY INFORMATIVE. I DO AGREE THAT THE AVAILABILITY OF MORE GAMES HAS TO BE BENEFICIAL TO A YOUNG OR NEW UMPIRE. THERE IS NO BETTER TEACHER THAN EXPERIENCE. I HAVE AVERAGED CLOSE TO 200 GAMES A YEAR FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS, AND FEEL THAT MY OVERALL PERFORMANCE ON THE FIELD HAS BENEFITED.

I've been at it on the major college level for 15 years now, and in my opinion the umpires are better prepared now than ever before because of education provided at all levels of clinics nationwide. When new umpires can see mechanics demonstrated correctly they can almost immediately apply them to games they work. That lends confidence to their umpiring, and gives them less to think about while they work the game. Yes, there are a lot of opportunities to work, but those opportunities have been there in my neck of the woods for 20 years. I used to say to new guys, "When coaches call they'll ask you if you're available and if you're any good - if you say yes, you're available they won't care what you say to the other question." I've been saying that for 20 years - baseball is a great sport to get into for rapid advancement. You'll get more chances faster, and if you apply yourself and have any skill at all you'll advance. And it's true, the more you work the better you get...

GBA

There were excellent umpires long before the internet
 

Those umpires who truly want to excel and move up always have found a way, and always will.

Before the internet we didn't just sit around hoping to get better. We went to camps, clinics, schools, and seminars. We read books, magazine articles and school work books.

It didn't take the internet for umpires to become excellent at their craft. We had some pretty good ones in the 30's and 40's.

The internet is just another tool that is used by those who wish to improve and get it right. If they didn't have the internet, they'd find another way.

Travel around the various internet sites, boards and pages. You will find the same names over and over again. Sometimes we get so involved we forget how few there are of us on the internet.

Don't get fooled into thinking that we are in the majority of umpires. We are not. Just like those before us who worked even harder to understand the game, we are a minority. Less than 1% of active umpires spend time researching their craft on the internet.

While the Internet provides an excellent avenue for umpires to converse about different topics including rules, mechanics, and game management..........there is no replacement for experience.

Learning to umpire is much like learning to play the piano.
That is, if you take 10 piano lessons and don't practice what you've been taught, then you're not going to be any good. When you're not pleased, the answer is not to go take an additional 10 lessons to get better, but rather to better practice that which you have already been taught. Once you develop good habits from the first 10 lessons you've had, then you take more lessons (to learn more) and further refine your skills. What you've learned in first 10 lessons may now seem to be everyday habit, but you're improving and honing all the combined skills.

Don't expect overnight wonders because you've spent 5 days discussing a topic on the net. Don't expect not to make errors. While you have considerable time to make comments and decisions regarding issues on the net, you don't have that luxury on the field.

Yet, as you continue to practice that which you've learned about umpiring it will become routine so you make those decisions reactively. You'll even learn to make some decisions in amateur ball proactively. While the net offers tools of learning that were far more difficult for yesterday's umpire to seek out, there still remains no substitute for experience.

Getting them right on the net is not the same as getting them right on the field. Certainly the net IS a place to practice your learnings, but it's a totally different field from being on the diamond...........
The more you practice, the luckier you get.

Just my opinion,

Freix

My Two Cents
 

With only three years of game experience under my belt all I can provide is my opinion how the Internet has enchanced my skills as an umpire. When I made the decision to umpire I visited numerous sites and printed out dozens of articles on various aspects of the umpiring (I did not find discussion boards until this year). It is my belief that cumulative knowledege contained in those articles accelerated my learning curve considerably. But perhaps the biggest thing the Net did was expose me to a level of professionalism and love of the game that umpires have. As a result, I make every effort to be a professional as I grow and learn.

Once last thought: The "experience" passed along on the Net versus the "experience" acquired during game while not the same, certainly has made me a better umpire. Thanks to all of you will take the time to enhance the skills of the new guys on the block.

Re: My Two Cents
 

Mike, while I agree the knowledge and learning is available on the Net, the practice of<b> skill</b> is developed on the field.....and refined through experience........

Just my opinion,

Freix

The Internet is just another tool
 

I have been umpiring for ten years. I discovered the Internet and the Discussion Boards a couple of years after I attended my fist clinic. I think that one advantage of the Internet is it lets a serious new umpire know he still has a lot to learn. It helps though to be able to post a message in December when the next meeting of your association is a couple months away.

I think that some posters get too caught up in personalities and it clouds their thinking. Some focus on WHO is talking rather than what they are saying and what their credentials to make "authoritative opinion" may be. Also, regardless of how knowledgeable an official may appear on the web we don't really know about his or her abilities until we see them under game conditions on the field. I remember my first year umpiring I was paired with a college official at my first Connie Mack game. Joe said one simple thing (among a whole lot others) I'll always remember He said to always look like an umpire. That bit of advice spoke volumes about appearance, hustle, and more subtle parts of officiating.

I try to give back to newer officials working our own Association's school as well as at games but I always find it easier when the newer guy approaches me first and asks for feedback. Jim/NYC

One of the best pieces of advice I got when I started doing HS was talk to all the guys that have been around and you think do a good job. Ask advice on situations and have then offer criticisms of your mechanics. Of all you hear some will work for you and some won't. Take all the information and pull out what you think is good for you, throw the rest away, and then develope you own style. I see no diffence on the internet. Ask and learn then apply want it to your game.

Devilsadvocate, et al:

Are you not entertaining the age-old question of is today better than yesterday? Taking it a step further, will tomorrow be better than today? Seems to me that you're dealing with the what-ifs and the coulda-shoulda-woulda principle. It reminds me of all those arguments that compare today's athletes with those of another era. Each person has their own opinion, and we've all heard the story ... "opinions are like ***-----, we've all got one and we're all entitled to one."

On to the point I think you're making. Is it easier to succeed today in this gendre than it was a decade or two ago? I somewhat agree, in that the access to information is more readily available in todays world. If one can acquire the information necessary to learn about his or her endeavors more easily, then they probably can develope and advance in a shorter period of time.

Regarding the value of internet forums, like anything else they can be productive or counter-productive. I'm reminded of the statement made about "why are there so many bad writers? Answer: Because there are so many people who can't read."

I find the information posted here and at other locations interesting, entertaining, informative, provocative, insulting and sometimes totally useless and a waste of time. One must be able to ferret through the bad sometimes in order to find something of value and substance. I personally enjoy the discussions, as I'm sure many of you do, in order to get a varied look from many diferent angles on any given subject.

"It takes all kinds of schooling to adapt oneself to my type of fooling" wrote Robert Frost. In this regard I would say that there are a great number of ways to develope good skills and rule knowloedge. The internet is one of those places. Another way / place, which was not mentioned in this thread, is by going to the ball park to observe good umpires doing their work in real time. I know that when I first entered this 'dark side' of baseball, I went to Stanford's sunken diamond,as well as other venues, and just watched the umpires work. Being a formere ball player it took me several innings to focus my eyes on the umps and not the ball. I believe this is one area that a great number of umps fail to take advantage and witness first hand. Watch the good umps, again and again and again.

The more time and hard work that an individual puts into learning their craft, the quicker they will grow in knowledge and ability. When that happens then a number of others will say " Hey, he's good, can I work with him?"

ED

[Edited by etbaseball on Feb 14th, 2002 at 01:45 AM]

A Good Source For Two Cents
 

Mike,

I think that just three years expereince makes you a perfect source of info on the modern day Internet umpire. I have umpired ten years and went to a clinic my first year. I have been to one other since. These were local clinics run by a former Minor League umpire and a group of college officials. I think it is important to my intergrity and love of the game to get better. It is not linked to getting ahead. I am content doing Connie Mack baseball near to home.

I think the Internet speeds up your expereince by the shared expereince of others but it is tough to know who an authoriative source is and then choose from polar opposites. I think the Internet helped me with game management. For example a lefty pitcher has a border-line move to first. The runner is getting back. No big complaints. As the teams exchange sides I might let the coach (in earshot of the pitcher) know his move "needs a little attention". I correct the fault, don't have to call the balk, and the game moves smoothly.

I know some will say "You saw a balk -- Call it. What rules are you going to ignore tomorrow?" That is their privlige and they may be just as serious about umpiring as I am but we differ oon how to go about that. I think game management does not mean I have to constantly interject myself into games. Jim/NYC

This is definitly no advertisement but the No.1 influence in my development as an umpire has been Carl Childress's books. Why. They gave me what I thought was an unbias approach to umpiring, sometimes amusing and down to earth. They also introduced me to other areas that could be of help.

2. My willingness to do any game available.

3. My insistence on trying to call a perfect game. This alone still causes me to go back to the books even after 16 years.

Ten and twenty years from now, look back and Im almost postive that you will find out that your development as an official is and will always be in direct proportion to your willingness to make yourself better at what your doing. Computers, brain wave helmets(?), books and any other invention that man comes up with, is ONLY A TOOL.
Mask $65.00, Chest protector $100.00 Indicator $3.00
BRD $18.95

Hard work, self study and Hard work..... PRICELESS

One thing I know that helped me was early in my career, besides going to local clinics. I went to several minor league games and watched the umpires work. At first this is very hard being a former player, you have to focus on what the umpire is doing. Two man mechanics in the minor league level is usually very good, watch one then watch the other, or if you have a team locally you can concentrate on what one umpire does the entire game go back the next day and watch what the other one does how he reacts in different situations. I know that everyone does not have this opportunity but if you get a chance watch these guys. But now a word of warning do not try and emulate them, take what they do well and incorporate it into your game. And that is something only you can determine for yourself, how good do you want to get? If you can get to a college game watch these guys also they will show you things that you need to know. Read, watch, work the keys to being successful are up to you.

What minor league these days uses two-man? Class R? Aren't they all three-man?

P-Sz

Most A and AA have only 2 man crews that travel and work the season together. Not until playoffs do they go to 3 and 4 man.

Really? Interesting. I've been to AA Eastern League New Britain Rock Cats and independent short season St. Paul Saints games, and they were all 3-man.

P-Sz

All Single A leagues in the northwest are serviced by two man crews.