What does PU do?

DTQ_Blue · #1 (**permalink**) Wed May 02, 2007, 10:36pm

Situation, 2 outs R1 and R2. Uncaught third strike. Batter heads toward first, other runners are moving. BU in C forgets that there are 2 outs and thinks both runners are trying to steal. He expects F2 to pick up ball and throw to 3rd so he starts running toward third looking directly there. F2 picks up the ball, throws to first, I'm watching the play at first. F3 gloves the ball with foot off the bag and then gets foot on bag just in time (in my opinion to make the putout). I say nothing waiting for BU to make the call. I hear nothing, then look to see he is just turning around from facing third. There is a moment of silence. He realizes that he has to call something and calls "safe." Now this is senior LL where coaches don't know what umpire is responsible for coverage. Mgr. of the defense is pissed that the safe call was made, and blurts out loud enough for everyone there to hear "Neither one was watching the play." Of course the mgr. never went to BU and asked him to get some help from me.

UmpJM · #2 (**permalink**) Wed May 02, 2007, 10:43pm

DTQ Blue,

While I'm pretty new to this stuff, I would think it would be appropriate for the PU in the sitch described, as soon as he saw that his partner had not seen the play, to aggressively and emphatically step out and bang the runner "OUT!!" at 1B.

This would be "poaching" your partner's call, which, in the general case, pretty much isn't done. Given the circumstances, your partner might appreciate rather than resent you doing so in this specific case.

But, maybe that "just isn't done".

I'm curious to see what others have to say.

JM

RPatrino · #3 (**permalink**) Wed May 02, 2007, 11:25pm

I'm with UmpJM here...step up, tell you partner , "ive got this one, Bill"...and bang him out. After the game tell your parnter his *** called and wants his head out of their right now!!!

DTQ_Blue · #4 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 12:17am

As for the mgr., do you let those kinds of comments go? My partner just lost track of # of outs so he didn't see the play. To broadcast to the whole field that neither of us saw the play is in effect saying that I wasn't doing my job; to me that's personal. I told him to keep his comments to himself and we played on. I later told the mgr. that he could have asked my partner to ask me for help. I think he understood where I was coming from.

waltjp · #5 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 06:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue

As for the mgr., do you let those kinds of comments go? My partner just lost track of # of outs so he didn't see the play. To broadcast to the whole field that neither of us saw the play is in effect saying that I wasn't doing my job; to me that's personal. I told him to keep his comments to himself and we played on. I later told the mgr. that he could have asked my partner to ask me for help. I think he understood where I was coming from.

Mistake number 1 was losing track of the outs. Okay, it happens. Bigger mistake, anticipating the play and not watching the ball. The ball will take you to the play.

ozzy6900 · #6 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 06:52am

Did you flash to your partner the # of outs before the bat cycle started? That is a mechanic that prevents this kind of problem start with. Bot umpires should know before every batter how many outs there are.

As far as the play went, you were correct in (one camp) in allowing your partner to make the call first, after all, it is his call! When your partner made the wrong call you should have signaled to him that you had help.

Now I do not agree with the above because you knew that your partner was not in position or watching. You simply could have said "I got it, Bill" and make the call. It's just a way to cover you partner's butt and not hanging him out to dry.

sargee7 · #7 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 06:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue

As for the mgr., do you let those kinds of comments go? My partner just lost track of # of outs so he didn't see the play. To broadcast to the whole field that neither of us saw the play is in effect saying that I wasn't doing my job; to me that's personal. I told him to keep his comments to himself and we played on. I later told the mgr. that he could have asked my partner to ask me for help. I think he understood where I was coming from.

DTQ, I agree with what the others had said about taking the call for your partner and if that had happened then there probably wouldn't have been a comment from the coaches. Having said that, since it went the way it did, I wouldn't wait for the coach to ask my partner for help, knowing that my partner got crossed up on the count and wasn't where he should have been, I would have initiated the conference myself and gotten the call right.

Plus, I got to say that your comment about this being Senior LL and coaches not knowing who has the responsibility where could be a little wrong. At this level the coaches have most likely been doing this for quite a while and should be very well versed on which blue should be where and calling what.

DTQ_Blue · #8 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 07:13am

The other interesting thing about the play is how bad my partner felt for missing the play and how it affected him for the rest of the game. Prior to the play we were making the eye contact and signaling each other. After, not the case. His head was hanging and when I could get eye contact with him, his signals were not crisp. I think he was hard on himself and beat himself up mentally for the rest of the game. A lot of people don't realize how much we want to call a game right. So much so that in some cases we overreact against ourselves when we make a mistake.

I appreciate all your comments. Next time (if there is one) I won't let this happen. Next time I see him, I'll share your advice about what I could have done to help him.

LMan · #9 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 07:26am

It's hard to get back into the 'zone' after you kick a call, but that's also a learned skill that comes with time. Umpires can't 'take plays off' like players sometimes do.

It's like being a cornerback who goofs and allows that 50-yard bomb to a wide receiver..somehow, in the space of about a minute, you gotta line back up across from that guy, put that mistake out of your head, and play ball.

Rcichon · #10 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 12:52pm

Breaching protocol [and poaching your partner's call] here would have made you both look better IMHO.

At the least, give him the 'I have a call RTFN' look. After all, he should not call something he did not see. He should have pointed at you here for input before calling anything.

Verbal & non verbal communication should be covered in a meeting between you both before the game.

TussAgee11 · #11 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltjp

Mistake number 1 was losing track of the outs. Okay, it happens. Bigger mistake, anticipating the play and not watching the ball. The ball will take you to the play.

I don't think anticiapting the play is a mistake. The problem is he anticipated the wrong play because he didn't know the outs. I agree with eye on the ball, and it will take you where you need to be, but if you don't anticipate a bit, you may not be in the best postion.

Anticipation (on where the play is going to be) = good

Back to the ball = bad

waltjp · #12 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 01:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I don't think anticiapting the play is a mistake. The problem is he anticipated the wrong play because he didn't know the outs. I agree with eye on the ball, and it will take you where you need to be, but if you don't anticipate a bit, you may not be in the best postion.

Anticipation (on where the play is going to be) = good

Back to the ball = bad

Maybe I worded it clumsily but we agree. It's like an ump who turns to second base on a steal attempt before the ball has passed him. Eventually he's going to catch one with the back of his head.

Eastshire · #13 (**permalink**) Thu May 03, 2007, 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I don't think anticiapting the play is a mistake. The problem is he anticipated the wrong play because he didn't know the outs. I agree with eye on the ball, and it will take you where you need to be, but if you don't anticipate a bit, you may not be in the best postion.

Anticipation (on where the play is going to be) = good

Back to the ball = bad

I agree. The problem is not anticipating the play, but how he is reacting to that anticipation. Nothing is going to happen at 3rd until the ball gets there so there was no reason for him to look there before he saw where the throw was going.

We are all going to anticipate wrong from time to time for various reasons, but the error was in not waiting to confirm where the play was going to be rather than in anticipating.