Asked on another forum
 

The latest baseball question from another forum:

"Man on second. Pitcher toes the rubber wheels and throws the ball directly to the second baseman playing straight away. No one ever moved to cover second, appeared to be a set play where the pitcher throws to a position player instead of the bag to get the runner to break for third. The umpire call a ball . I have heard from some pretty knowledgable baseball people that it should have been a balk because of the intention to deceive to a ball as the umpire called to not calling anything. BTW the crew calling the game last nite said the umpire made the correct call in calling a ball. What is the correct call?"

Thanks fellas.

If it is not a play on a runner, it sounds like a pitch so Ball would be correct. Slightly different than throwing to an unoccupied base.

What rules?

Legal in OBR.

It's often thought that one can't balk to second base. Well, you can, Unlike throwing to first, the pitcher can step toward second and throw to either F4 or F6. The key is his step. If he didn't step toward second, he balked. If he did, it's nothing. You have a runner on second, so he's not throwing to an unoccupied base. No ball.

What???? Rules citation, please.

What Rich said, and asked.

It's legal as long as the step is to an occupied base. The only base where the throw must be TO THE BASE is first.

As stated earlier, this is perfectlly legal in OBR.

The pitcher can throw to any player not on a base. The rule says the pitcher cannot throw to an unoccupied base but says nothing about throwing to a teammate who is not on a base.

The errant throw?
 

Not a balk: Rules do not allow a feint to 1B and do require a direct throw towards 1B. Rules do allow feints which do not require a throw to other bases.

Not a ball: Who would call a ball in this situation and why? There is nothing in the rules to penalize a poorly attempted legal play by the defense. The runner would be free to advance at his own risk.

That's legal: This play falls between a feint/no throw and a poorly attempted pickoff. However, it would also be hard to believe that it was designed to deceive the runner. Play would resume, as normal.

Think about it this way ... as long as he stepped toward 2nd, he didn't have to throw the ball AT ALL ... so why would there be a penalty for throwing it to a fielder?

Confused!
 

The other guys gave the correct ruling - its nothing.

My confusion is that you have two umpiring crews who actually said that calling a ball on the batter was the correct call???:eek:

That's nuts. So the "pretty knowledgable baseball people" that you spoke of might need to get in their books a little more.;)

I would be really really curious as to which rules they actually thought might apply to this situation to call it a ball.

Thanks
David

It really sounds good.
 

But I bet you would get a pretty good argument from a coach.
Are you gonna bring up the "45 degree rule" on either side? ;)

Distance and Direction is one aspect of balk/no balk as well as what the other guys on here are saying except for the "crews who know baseball" and called a "ball." WTF?? Hmmmm...probably why it showed up on a basketball thread. Hey, ask a Basketball ref...I bet they know...

Legal play in OBR

David, I didn't speak to anyone. It's not my question. I simply copied and pasted from another forum.

Johnny, the question wasn't asked on a basketball forum. It was asked on an "Ask the Ref?" forum. I answer questions for football and basketball. For other sports that I don't officiate, I ask the experts if it's something I'm not certain about. I didn't realize that you expected a Baksetball official to change his user name when he posts on the Baseball board. Either way, there's no need for you to be an a$$hole.

I appreciate those who responded with an intelligent reply. It was an NFHS game.

Well, I stayed out of this until:
 

Justanotherblue wrote:

"It's often thought that one can't balk to second base. Well, you can, . . ."

It Is Impossible To Balk TO Second Base.

sorry b-ball guy...didn't mean to come off as what you called me...just that a lot of people on this board ask for opinions then don't want to at least listen to the answers provided. rough morning for me. thanks for your question...congrats on 10,000 posts.

If this is an English/writing lesson, you're probably correct...

Hehehe,
 

No Johnny, my statement is based on the rules of baseball as played in the United States of America.

Even Jim Evans agrees with my basic statement.

Regards,

Not according to what he says in his balk video. I thought that was based on the rules of baseball.

That's the video I've watched several times...that's where I'm now confused!

Gentlemen:
 

This will be my last post to this thread (I know some of you are already getting happier):

Please stick with me while I go through this yet another time.

There is a difference between balking TO second base and balking with a runner ON second base.

All the normal technical balks can be made with a runner ON second base (i.e dropping the ball when getting into the set position or failing to make a stop somewhere during the pitching motion). That is not an arguement.

SDS feels that any balk made while a runner ON second base is a balk TO second. He would be considered correct by many (including Jim Evans).

In my discussion with Evans (with Garth B present) we covered the following possibilities that eventually end in legal plays or balks that involve a runner at second base:

1) No one will argue that when pitcher turns to second while in contact with the pitcher's plate he is not required to throw,

2) No one will argue that when a pitcher turns to second that throws make he makes does not have go to the base, he can throw to any fielder located at any location.

3) No one will argue that since the pitcher does not, by rule, need to throw to second on any pickoff attempt we know that the regulations involving a "feint" are also moot.

So let's get to the real issue.

When does the pitcher not gain ground on an attempt and how does this impact my statement?

Play:

F1 is in the set position. Ball is in his glove at his belt. He takes NO STEP in any direction and simply flips the ball back to second base. He has BALKED!

The balk, however, is for failing to complete the pitch NOT a balk for failing to gain direction.

Evans agrees that in an essence my statement is correct. Where the two of us disagree is WHY the statement is made.

We use, IIITBTSB, to help umpires recognize that second and third base are different than first base. We also use the statement to help umpire understand that there is a difference in pitching regulations between second base and third base.

For the last 10 years both Carl Childress and I have asked for anyone to give us an example of "a balk to second base." No one has ever sent us an example.

I am just as correct to say "It Is Impossible To Balk To Second Base" as I am to say "and Jim Evans agrees with me."

Evans agrees with the statement but says that I am wrong to TEACH THAT WAY!

And with this post I will slide back into my cave and drop off the posting lists yet again.

I remain,

"The Notorious Thread Deleter"

That was made years before he met Tee.:D

I was a witness and interested bystander during the coonversation Tee and Jim had in Portland. Jim agreed with Tee's literal assessment, but explained that in common practice he would continue referring to some balks as balks to second, because "that's what they look like to the average fan, coach, player and umpire." Then he actually gave an example of how Tee was correct... a balk when a pitcher attempted to throw to second but was actually a balk to home.

It IS possible to balk to second base. Committing a balk with a runner on first is balking a player TO 2B. It's a matter of separating the noun from the verb. They are not interchangeable. "To" balk means to commit a pitching infraction. "A" balk is the pitching infraction itself. So "to balk to second" means committing a balk that sends a runner to second.

Is it nit-picking, most certainly yes - however, you raised the issue.

Wrong. Runners don't balk. Pitchers balk. Runners advance to second base.

You know, that's the best thing about this place. Sarcasim, baseball and an english lesson all in one! :rolleyes:

Using your twisted logic of language...what would a "balk to first" be? I've never seen a balk that sent a runner to first. But, then, the sky is blue in my world. What color is it in yours?

You need to capitalize "english".:D

There isn't by definition because the balk rule doesn't apply to batters - only runners. You could have a balk to second, third or home.

Look at my twisted logic on this one. Try the term WALK.

F1 gives up a WALK - Noun, Base on balls
F1 WALKS in the winning run. Walks in this case refers to the action of giving a base on balls and forcing the winning run in from 3B.

Same thing, different word - balk

F1 commits a Balk -noun
F1 balks R1 TO second. The action of pitcher forces R1 to move to 2B, therefore it is a balk to 2B.

You could use bunt as an example as well. B1 bunted R1 TO 2B.

If you want to know where my twisted logic comes from - I'm a chemical engineer whose 29-year career is based on thinking with logic. And like I said, I'm not the one who raised the issue.

Just ask a good accountant "what's one and one" and the accountant says "whatever you want it to be". Is it realistic - no. But it is perception. What Tim C thinks in his post is an absolute - you can't balk TO 2B. My logic says you can and I proved it, despite the fact that that was maybe not what he intended. I read his statement literally since there were no qualifiers and responded accordingly.

You people spend too much time arguing semantics...if only we were as good at umpiring as we were at critiquing other people's sentences...we'd all be in the bigs...if we were on the field, I'm sure we'd agree on much of what's being talked about here. (Well, maybe not) :-)

That explains your ideas of English.

Balk to first. Let's stay consistent with usage Mr. Logic.

Certanly not if he called a balk to second. :D

You asked - I am staying consistent. You just fail to see it.

It always seems as if the guys who use "Big" in the nom de plumes are compensating.

No matter.

{Ignore List} = open
{BigBuy} = insert
{Ignore List} = close

You may be being consistent with yourself. I think he's asking you to use words in the same way that other people mean them, and not looking for ways that their words could be twisted. Stay consistent WITH EVERYONE ELSE in your language, and we'll all be better off.

Give the man cigar.

We all use different vocabularies in our lives. We have them for work, school, social interactions, hobbies. It is these agreed upon vocabularies that allow for meaningful communication.

I was being consistent. He asked about my "twisted logic" I used an analogy using the words walk and bunt. I explained about no balk to first - tell me what is so inconsistent about explaining my logic. My whole premise on this was that Tim C made a statement, that he assumed that everyone reading the posts would interpret what he said in the same manner. If everybody did there would be no discussion forum, because we would all know and interpret the rules the same.

I've been criticized because I've made statements that not everybody saw the same thing as I did, or I oversimplified. Tim C did the same thing and I pointed it out, and I'm the one getting criticized. I would be happy to be consistent with everyone else. However, everyone else isn't always consistent! For example, new umpires, coaches, managers, umpires at different levels.

I'm not a chemical engineer, but I know the smell of bad gas when I hear it!! It is impossible to balk to second base. Give it up!!

Dear Big Guy:
 

Let's make this easy.

Place a rujnner at second base ONLY.

Now, please you give me an example of a balk to second base.

Tick, tick, tick . . .

Regards,

I am not defending Big Guy, just commenting on the question.

RHP initiates the stretch and comes set, and without moving his feet separates his right hand from the glove and makes a throw to F4 covering at 2B.

I have never seen it, but it would be a balk and the only balk I can think of to second base.

Dg:
 

I think the example I gave above is at least somewhat along your lines.

The play as you descibed is not a balk to second base. It is a balk for failing to complete the pitch to the plate. As soon as you separated and did not pitch I call "Balk" (in FED) and penalize from there. I do not care where the ball went.

Regards,

Wrong setup. Instead, place runners at 1B and 3B. The pitcher comes set, pivots and steps directly towards 2B.

He just balked, the rule is 8.05(d), and "he balked to 2B" is a completely accurate description of that play, as most English speaking people use and comprehend words.

I think it would be a balk for failing to step directly to the base you are throwing to for a pickoff. It is impossible to throw the ball to any base without separating your hands, thus separating your hands for the purpose of a pickoff is not a balk.

With your logic there are no balks to any base, the pitcher did something wrong and it doesn't matter where the ball went.

Some people are just in love with the saying, "IIITBTSB."

Sds
 

And some people are just in love with saying "I could have been a major league umpire."

Frankly I'll stick with IIITBTSB.

Regards,