I was told last night...
 

by the umpires that a left-handed pitcher can bring his foot behind the rubber and still throw to first as long as his knee doesn't cross. I can't find anything about the knee in the rule book (FED). Any help?

FED 6-2-4(f)

(acts by a pitcher that constitute a balk if there is a runner or runners on base)

"failing to pitch to the batter when the enitre non-pivot foot passes behind the perpendicular plane of the back edge of the pitcher's plate, except when throwing or feinting to second base....."

harmbu,

You were told wrong. In FED, if the free foot entirely passes the back plane of the rubber, the LH F1 may no longer go to first or it's a balk. 6-2-4f.

JM

Thanks
 

Garth,

That is the exact rule that I showed them. One of them told me that it was somewhere in there about the knee. I knew he was wrong, but how do you prove it to someone who believes that it is there and that you just have to keep looking? It had nothing to do with the outcome of the game, so I did not pursue it any further. I knew I could come here and find out what I wanted to know.

Thanks

It is a waste of time, and hazardous to your ability to remain in the game, to reason with umpires who do not take the time to know the rules.Contact the assignor, and ask him for an opinion without accusing the umpires of being as stupid as they appear to be.

You've already proven it. Until they produce countering evidence, you win.
"It's in there somewhere" doesn't fly.

If you're in a good mood, you tell the coach he has 1 minute to find it in "HIS" rule book. Otherwise, we play based on my knowledge and interpretation of the rules. Protest if you like (said with a smile).

Helmet on too tight, Nick? You've got the roles reversed here.

Exactly
 

I sure hope you are joking. The problem is I have encountered umpires before with that attitude. What do you do when you have an umpire who comes up with something that is way off and nowhere to be found in the rulebook.

I have no recourse but to call the assignor after the game when it is too late.

I have said that (politely) to coaches. Let them dig through the book. It's a tougher situation when the other ump is cock-sure of himself and wrong.

That's actually backward - the knee can break the plane, as long as the foot doesn't. I've seen more than one lefty do this, in FED, AmLegion, Junior College, etc.

You seem to know your book. Except for the part that's important now... Read up on protests - and use it.

I'll pay good money for a photo of a LH pitcher breaking the back plane of the rubber with his right knee while keeping his right foot in front of the rubber.

blueskysblue,

Careful there. Under NCAA rules if "any part of the stride leg" breaks the plane (like the knee, for example), the LHP is prohibited from going to 1B.

FED & OBR, I would agree with your assertion.

JM

After you offered your POV and he rejects it, isn't this between him and the coach(es)? He's tossing himself under the bus here.

What else do you want to do about it during the game? Shout about it? Wrestle him like SDS wants to do whenever a partner shows up in white gloves after Labor Day? ;)

Garth,

How much?

Actually, you've already got one. Not just a photo, but full motion video. I mean it's a RHP doing it with his left knee, but the principle is exactly the same.

JM

Does nobody get that the original poster is the coach and he's talking about ignorant umpires, not his parnter and not other coaches?

Obvioiusly, can't / couldn; take pictures while working - sounds a little "contortionistic", doesn't it? Actually, I'm not (and never was) a pitcher, but I am left handed. I can, without hurting myself, pull my right knee up and back (over the "rubber") while my foot stays in front of rubber. It's not that difficult. I've always thought that was a "learned" movement, meant to "disadvantage" the runner, but couldn't "balk" it by the current rule(s).

You count that forced distorted body position? Not me. I want to see it in a game.

****. I quit, see ya Monday. Maybe.

As already cited, you were told wrong. All codes agree, if the foot breaks the back edge of the rubber, he must go home, unless feinting or throwing to 2B. NCAA only requires the knee to break the back edge as JM stated.

Although he's a righty, you should see my son with his left foot. At 16 and almost 6'2" he can still twist like a pretzel.

No. NCAA requires that any part of the stride leg/foot breaking the back plane commits the pitcher to home or second.

In FED - ENTIRE foot must break plane of the back edge.

f. failing to pitch to the batter when the entire non-pivot foot passes behind the perpendicular plane of the back edge of the pitcher's plate, except when feinting or throwing to second base in an attempt to put out a runner.

Are you lookin' for a fight, buddy?:)

Nope -- it's the entire foot or any part of the leg. 9-3.l

I was always taught in OBR that if any part of the free foot crosses the back plane of the rubber the pitcher was then commited to pitch (if not going to 2nd base). Are you guys saying that the entire Foot needs to be past the plane??

8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off-play.

The foot part is the same for FED, NCAA, and OBR. NCAA has the "any part of the stride leg" breaking the plane addition.

PBUC official interpretation: The prohibition against breaking the plane specifically applies only to the foot: "If the knee of the pitcher's free leg passes behind the back edge of the rubber but his foot does not, he may legally throw to first base with no violation." --[6.5b]

Steve,

While I certainly agree about the knee, what do you make of the following from the MLBUM (my emphasis)?

Seems a little different from the "entire foot" language found in the FED rule.

JM

Well, what I think is that it differs from what the rule book states. I didn't check MLBUM, only the BRD. Pure lazyness. Now I'm going to check what Evans has to say about it.

Evans says "break the plane" too:

On the "trick 3rd to 1st" move used by the righthander, the umpire should be especially alert for two criteria:

(1) the pitcher may not break the back plane of the rubber with his free foot before attempting the feint to 3rd; and

(2) in his feint to 3rd, he must break contact from the rubber with his pivot foot.

Breaking the plane would be a balk in violation of 8.01(a) and failure to break contact would be a balk in violation of 8.01(c)...not a direct step from the rubber ("while touching his plate").

26 minutes into the Jim Evans balk video, Jim shows the LH pitcher breaking the back plane with his knee without breaking the back plane with his foot, and mentions that some LH pitchers have gotten creative with this. And it's legal. It's really not that hard to do, and I have seen this a number of times. A pitcher who can perfect this can really hold 'em close at 1B.

Here's the deal...

We don't carry rule books, we are supposed to know the rules. Now, most of us are not professional umpires, so we do make mistakes. And that includes interpretation of the rules. So, when a coach questions our application of a rule, if I think it is appropriate, I will give the coach the opportunity to prove me wrong, based on showing me the rule, in the rule book.

He can argue his rule knowledge against mine all day long, but he is not going to change my mind, or waste game time doing it. If all we have is two opinions, the umpire's must win out.

For the record, I only give the coach the opportunity if I am not sure about the situation. And that is only for those rare occasions when something obscure, that happens once in a career so your not really up on it, is the issue.

And don't ask me for an example. I can't tell you about a rule I don't know about. Why, because if I don't know about it, how can I know about it ?

Yes, but For HS Ball
 

Men,

Frankly, we all know that most of us have people in our area who do not take the game as seriously as we do. For some people, I would recommend carrying a book with them, or as the FED Umpire manual says, to have one easily available.

For most of us, we would never tolerate someone bringing out the book to try and correct us, it may well be an ejectable offense. But I woulkd rather have somebody get the call right by having a rule book with them to refer to than messing things up.

Of course, having said that we need to also admit that coaches should never carry a rule book with them to a game, live hand grenades in the dugout can always blow a coaches hand off or worse, get him ejected.....:D

You're right. I was being sloppy with my reading. I apologize.

1. That isn't what I was talking about. I believe my discussion concerned breaking the back plane with the knee while keeping the foot in front of the rubber.

2. I know what they went through to get that shot.

Isn't that pretty much exactly the same thing?

Only for those who can't read or don't know the difference between breaking the plan of the rubber and in front of the rubber.

But his balk video clearly shows "entire foot".

I believe the segment on Evans balk video exactly explains breaking the back plane with the knee while keeping the foot in front of the back plane. If you are making a point about the foot in front of the rubber vs. back plane you are picking nits, it still has not passed the back plane.

Well, when they finally get around to rewording the comment from 8.05(a) to say "breaks the plane," then I will go with that. The way it reads now, the entire foot must be past the back edge of the rubber. If I work a MLB game anytime soon, I will go with their interpretation. The folks who decide these interpretations do so arbitrarily, with little regard as to what the rest of the world has to call.

Good Lord. My original post was not about picking nits. It was not even directly related to balks. It was on the ability of a human being to perform a contortionist act. ("I'll pay good money for a photo of a LH pitcher breaking the back plane of the rubber with his right knee while keeping his right foot in front of the rubber.")

Try it. I had four pitchers try it last night after a game just for for fun. Three nearly fell over. The fourth stayed upright, but had to turn his back completely to the batter to accomplish this.

I was not discussing a rule. I was not discussing balks.

Reading is fundamental.

Why would it be an ejectable offense for a coach to bring out the book? If a coach has a rules interpretation question, he has every right to bring out the book if he so desires, and you can't do a d$$$ thing about it. If you toss for this reason, it's more than likely either your pride or your ego got in the way. If the coach brings out the book and he's right, say thank you, change your call, suck it up, shut up and finish the game.

p.s. Be thankful that he doesn't make you look like a horse's a$$.

There's a right way and a wrong way to question a call / rules interp. Bringing out the rule book is the wrong way, and is considered "Showing up" the umpire. If a coach asks politely and it's a complicated ruel (think NCAA DH), then I might go (and have gone) into the dugouot to look it up.

Bob,

I understand the point that some would think it's showing up the umpire, and depending upon the demeanor of the coach there are times when I might think the same, and that there are better ways to get the point across. However, the act itself of bringing the book out in and of itself cannot be an ejectable offense because the coach does have the right to state his case regarding a rule interpretation. The only reason I say that is because there are umpires who would absolutely refuse to believe a coach was right and he was wrong unless the rule book was in their face. If the important thing is to make sure the correct call is made, then at some point in time either the umpire acknowledges the coach is right and corrects the call if in fact that is the case, or he says no, and the coach decides to protest the game. If you're the umpire what would you rather do, get the call right, or trust your luck on a protest?

Personally, I've never been shown the rule book at a game, and I would probably not like it. But on the other hand, refusing to acknowledge the book presented by a coach amounts to showing him up, and that is certainly not the intention either, and I can't justifiably toss him because of it.

There are many ways to address the issue, some a lot better than others, plus it can get out of hand. My point was not to suggest something argumentative, but to just suggest that absent any misconduct on the part of the coach, bringing out the book cannot result in an ejection and nothing more.

If a coach comes out waving or showing the rulebook, he's showing you up and inciting the fans and his team. In my game, he's gone.

Like Bob said, if he has questions about something strange like the NCAA DH rule, I might entertain showing him my sheet cheat.

Bringing the rule book onto the field to show an umpire is in itself misconduct enough to be ejected. If the Head Coach wants to talk about a rule that he thinks I may have mis-applied, he is more than welcome to come out and talk to me about it. If his argument is persuasive enough, I may decide to go check the rule. If you let him bring the book out and stick it in your face, he is basically telling everyone in the place that you don't know the rules. Once he does this, be prepared for the other coach to come out waving the rule book next time you have a whacker at first. DON'T LET THEM DO IT!

See 3-3-1g.1

Agreed, but that' different from bringing out the rule book.

There are no protests in IL FED ball.

I stand by my original assertion. I'm sure that if you checked with other, senior, members of the association, they'd say the same thing.

Help me out with this,

I am trying to envision this in my mind and do it myself, and I just cant seem to get it done.

Can someone explain step by step a smooth and continuous move & step & throw to first base, while breaking the back plane with the "free knee".
In trying this, I notice that when the knee goes back toward "2nd" breaking the plane, you have to turn at the hips, and the step to first is a sideways step with the toes pointing more toward second than first.

I have never seen this done, does someone have a link or something to look at and see this move being done the right way??