Helmet wearers

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, the helmet/mask combo CoachJM posted is far from "traditional," IMO.

I would think that if umpires commonly wore this combo that it would still be viewed as a "helmet" by the umpiring community, whereas a mask worn with a hat would be viewed as "traditional."

Let me put it this way. When the mask can be completely detached from the helmet, I consider that very traditional. And the picture showed above is not the same contraption that you see that players where when they are not using the HSM. I know you want to just have a debate over a very semantic issue. So if you do not know what traditional means in the context of this conversation, then so be it.

Peace

[SAump]

Originally Posted by etn_ump

You vigorously and tearfully ask for some people to stop repeating them and then you repeat every one of them! The word MORON comes to mind.

Actually, I repeat every one of them! Then I vigorously and tearfully ask for some people to stop repeating them. Obviously, the phrase "some people" doesn't necessarily apply to me. A HSM will not protect my head. The HSM cannot provide me with a better "vision" that I guess I may need for one situation or may not need for another. I would feel like a moron if I became an umpire after I had my vision problems improved by a HSM. Does anyone suggest vision improvement for the BU? I may be a moron for wasting my time trying to explain these things to some people. I already have enough vision to know some of those people will ignore my attempt.

[jkumpire]

Men,

I never, ever thought I would say this, but I loved the HSM.

It was a cool suny day when I used it, so as to using it on hot days I'm not sure, but yesterday it was great.

It was comfortable, it was easy to deal with, usually I kept it on between innings. I did have trouble getting it on around my glasses, but that might just take time to fix.

I never noticed a real big change in the viewing area over a regular mask.

I did have some questions about the fit, and I may have some adjustments to make on it:

1. The mask was hard to put n the correct place at first, if I put it on so my forehead hit the padded front of the HSM, the cage did not match up with my eyes, and it didn't fit well around the chin. Is there supposed to be space between the front of your head and the front of the HSM?

2. I am not really sure where my chin goes on the mask. If I put my eyes where they should be in the cage, the chin does not fit into the center of the chin pad, it seems to sit on the top of the pad. If I put it where i though the chin should sit, it was also tight around my chin.

3. I may need to tighten the back piece a little, because it did slip a little.

But overall, I was very, very surprised at the helmet, and how well it fit, esp with having a large head.

I was suing the Allstar 2000ump, which might explain a lot of why it was good. If you want a HSM, that is the one to get.

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by nickrego

There is absolutely no reason to ever take your helmet off to make a call, due to the visibility of a helmet.

then there is absolutely no reason to ever wear anything on your head or face when making a call, due to the visibility of nothing being there.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Men,
I never, ever thought I would say this, but I loved the HSM.
It was a cool suny day when I used it, so as to using it on hot days { } I'm not sure, but yesterday it was great.
It was comfortable, it was easy to deal with, usually I kept it on between innings. { } I did have trouble getting it on around my glasses, but that might just take time to fix. { }
I never noticed a real big change in the viewing area over a regular mask. { }
I did have some questions about the fit, and I may have some adjustments to make on it: { }
1. The mask was hard to put in the correct place at first, if I put it on so my forehead hit the padded front of the HSM, the cage did not match up with my eyes, and it didn't fit well around the chin. Is there supposed to be space between the front of your head and the front of the HSM? { }
2. I am not really sure where my chin goes on the mask. If I put my eyes where they should be in the cage, the chin does not fit into the center of the chin pad, it seems to sit on the top of the pad. If I put it where i though the chin should sit, it was also tight around my chin. { }
3. I may need to tighten the back piece a little, because it did slip a little. { See comment 2 above, }
But overall, I was very, very surprised at the helmet, and how well it fit, esp with having a large head. { Me too, }
I was using the Allstar 2000ump, which might explain a lot of why it was good. If you want a HSM, that is the one to get.

Everytime I read this, I must stop to admire your courage for posting it. I am not saying that I disagree with your opinion of using a helmet, especially one you like. I am saying that I am not sure that this post supports the exclusive use of any helmet. I also admire the honesty in this report. I hope it works out well for you after the proper adjustments have been made. If it doesn't work out for you, I will gladly have uxley11 send you instructions on how to get rid of it on eBay. Have a great year.

[jkumpire]

Thank you for your kind words!

If you would ask some of the other posters on this forum, some of them would admit to knowing me for a while, via internet boards and the like which are gone but not forgotten.

They wil also tell you I am as traditionalist an umpire as you will find, so trying a helmet is a pretty radical thing for me. I was one of those guys who never thought a HSM was good, and I swore I would never wear anything but a mask and hat. I'm not toally sold on it yet, but I am impressed with it.

I do hope to get some guidence about fitting these things a little better, and I'll wear it somemore, and see where we go with it. But I will be able to tell my new umpire students in the future that if they want to go with an HSM, go for it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me put it this way. When the mask can be completely detached from the helmet, I consider that very traditional. And the picture showed above is not the same contraption that you see that players where when they are not using the HSM. I know you want to just have a debate over a very semantic issue. So if you do not know what traditional means in the context of this conversation, then so be it.

Peace

Okay then, let's put it in simpler terms, hoping that you can understand: A mask that can be worn without a helmet is a traditional mask, and those masks are not allowed to be worn without a helmet under FED rules. You said that a catcher can wear a traditional mask (one without a helmet, remember), and that is false. Catchers are not allowed to wear traditional masks, because traditional masks are ones which are not worn with helmets, which are required.

The mask that JM pictured cannot be worn independently from the helmet, as there is no top pad. Other such masks that use helmets are also non-traditional in nature. The only masks which are traditional do not require a helmet in order to wear them.

I'm not debating semantics with you. I'm pointing out the inaccuracy of your statement. I know what is a traditional mask, and what is not, thank you very much for your unsolicited input on the subject.

[SAump]

JRUT, if you respond ..............

edited to ask: Sir, may I call you JRUT?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Okay then, let's put it in simpler terms, hoping that you can understand: A mask that can be worn without a helmet is a traditional mask, and those masks are not allowed to be worn without a helmet under FED rules. You said that a catcher can wear a traditional mask (one without a helmet, remember), and that is false. Catchers are not allowed to wear traditional masks, because traditional masks are ones which are not worn with helmets, which are required.

Once again you wallow in semantics. That is not what I said. I said nothing about the helmet or what can be worn with or without the mask. I simply said that a traditional mask can be worn under the rules. Now they sell them in stores all the time. If you have not idea what that is, not sure I can help you. Remember I was responding to a person that said they could only wear a HSM under the rules. Now where in the rules is that stated? Actually the helmet they wear does not have to be attached in any way with the mask. That to me is a "traditional" mask. The same kind of mask I wore when I played and the one that they sell more often to umpires (at least in style).

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The mask that JM pictured cannot be worn independently from the helmet, as there is no top pad. Other such masks that use helmets are also non-traditional in nature. The only masks which are traditional do not require a helmet in order to wear them.

I do not recall that I only reference the picture that JM showed.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I'm not debating semantics with you. I'm pointing out the inaccuracy of your statement. I know what is a traditional mask, and what is not, thank you very much for your unsolicited input on the subject.

What I said was not inaccurate at all. Because you are only debating what you think a "traditional" mask is. We are talking about masks, not the form of helmet. The person that I responded to said we should be required to wear a helmet like is required by the rules for the players. The players do not have to wear a HSM at all. There is no such rule. If you find the rule, then please reference it. Show me and everyone where this is stated then when you do not find it; I would like you to admit that you were wrong. We know that will never happen from you.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Look, I didn't say that JM's was the only reference, only an example of "non-traditional."

Okay Rutledge, you tell me. Exactly what do you consider a traditional mask?

Answer that question and we can go from there.

I say a traditional mask is one which is worn independently from a helmet. One which is not worn with a helmet (other than an illegal skull cap, that is.)

The rules state that catchers cannot wear a mask without a helmet with ear flaps, and that skull caps are prohibited. The helmet-mask combination must have adequate throat protection, and may be one-piece or multi-piece designs. Nowhere in the rules are "traditional masks" allowed, because "traditional masks" are not used with the type of helmets required by the rules.

Rule 1-4-8
Casebook 1.4.8 SITUATION A

[DG]

I have never seen a catcher wear a mask without some kind of hard shell under it (cap or skull). Fed requires two ear coverings for the hard shell, so if there was such a thing you could wear it with a traditional mask. I have not seen any combination of mask and shell that was not attached to each other.

[JRutledge]

Traditional Mask sold at Dick's Sports--Rawlings PWMX Catcher's Face Mask

The mask that JM showed is considered a "Youth" mask. It is for kids likely of LL and before HS age. It is designed for kids that do not know how to pull off their masks and gives them extra protection.


Rawlings Ai1OS Youth Catcher's Mask / Helmet Combo

The first picture is not outlawed by the rules. The NF Rules only state that the players have to wear a helmet if they are a catcher. The second picture is a combo mask helmet which in no way is required by the rules to be used as stated by UmpireBob.

Is there anything else you are having a hard time figuring out?

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Traditional Mask sold at Dick's Sports--Rawlings PWMX Catcher's Face Mask

The mask that JM showed is considered a "Youth" mask. It is for kids likely of LL and before HS age. It is designed for kids that do not know how to pull off their masks and gives them extra protection.

The first picture is not outlawed by the rules. The NF Rules only state that the players have to wear a helmet if they are a catcher. The second picture is a combo mask helmet which in no way is required by the rules to be used as stated by UmpireBob.

Is there anything else you are having a hard time figuring out?

Yes, I am having a hard time figuring out why you talk down to people the way you do.

The traditional mask you are showing is a regular mask, which is not allowed for high school baseball, because it does not attach to an approved, dual earflap helmet (skull caps and/or batting helmets are not legal).

I quoted you the rule you wanted, but you still insist that regular catcher's masks are still legal in high school, and they have not been for several years now. The casebook reference I gave says it all. They are speaking of traditional mask/old style batting helmets (a.k.a. skull caps) which are no longer allowed.

I've got it, why don't you show me one of these traditional masks on a player, along with the NFHS approved helmet that is required? Good luck finding that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yes, I am having a hard time figuring out why you talk down to people the way you do.

The traditional mask you are showing is a regular mask, which is not allowed for high school baseball, because it does not attach to an approved, dual earflap helmet (skull caps and/or batting helmets are not legal).

I quoted you the rule you wanted, but you still insist that regular catcher's masks are still legal in high school, and they have not been for several years now. The casebook reference I gave says it all. They are speaking of traditional mask/old style batting helmets (a.k.a. skull caps) which are no longer allowed.

I've got it, why don't you show me one of these traditional masks on a player, along with the NFHS approved helmet that is required? Good luck finding that.

I have a proposition for you. Just show me the exact wording in the rulebook that outlaws a traditional style mask. Or show me where it says only a HSM can be used or else the equipment is illegal? Because if what I have described is illegal, there should be something that says it is somewhere. Then there should be without a doubt.

Since I realize you will never do this. Rule 1-5-4 says, "The catcher's helmet and mask combination shall meet the NOCSAE standard. Any helmet or helmet and mask combination shall have full ear protection (dual ear flaps). A throat protector, which is either a part of or attached to the catcher's mask is mandatory. While in a crouch position, any non-adult warming up a pitcher at any location shall wear a head protector, a mask with a throat protector and a protective cup (male only)."

Now with all due respect I have yet to see a HSM without throat protection apart of the mask. But I do see many traditional masks without any throat protection. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Rule 1-5-4: (While showing a picture of a helmet style mask above the wording)

"To be legal, a catcher's helmet and mask combination shall mee the NOCSAE standard, have full ear protection and have a throat protector that adequately covers the throat. The commercially manufactured catcher's head, face and throat protection may be a one-piece or multi-piece design."

I guess you will say this is not valid information.

Peace