Two questions from a coach please...
 

11yo Super Series League Game...

Coaches of defensive team are sitting on buckets in front of dugout (man I hate that). Runner advances to third on a shallow hit to center. Runner is safely at third before throw gets to third. Third-baseman misses throw and the ball hits the bucket that defensive coach is sitting on. Runner advances free of risk?

I'm not clear on a visit to the pitcher rule reminded to me tonight. Nowhere in MLB rules, or in SS modifications do I see where you only get two "free" visits to the mound in a game, and thereafter all visits must result in a pitcher replacement. I'm sure I'm missing that somewhere...but where?

thanks in advance,

MT

Superseries baseball uses MLB pitching rules. The rule you quoted is a high school rule and does not apply.

Per the rules posted at superseriesbaseball.com:

4.27 PITCHING LIMITATIONS:
NONE. Per Sporting News rules, pitchers must be removed upon the second visit to the mound or field by any coach in the same inning. If a coach calls time, and crosses the foul line to confer with any player, this shall be considered a visit for that inning.

to your first question....runner is skipping his way along to home. Coach shouldn't be there, and if they are, they should be moving off their fat a$$es if and when any ball comes their way. Allowing them there is another topic all together.

part two...ahhh WHAT??? Your visits depend on your rule set your playing under. NFHS 3-4-1/NCAA 9-4-a, you get three free trips, after three, then pitcher has to be removed. If you remove you pitcher each trip.. you still have all three, it's only a trip if you don't remove your pitcher OBR 8.06, you get one trip per inning, make a second one, and he's done. I'm not familiar with SS modifications so your on your own there.

Screwed that one up.... sorry... a second trip to the same pitcher in the same inning in NCAA and he's done also, a coach may have three free trips to the same pitcher in a game, then he must be removed. DAmn... messed that one up

Keep trying.

NFHS= (2) free trips, removal on third and each subsequent trip. These are trips per game and not per pitcher.

He was referring to NCAA rules.

Yep, I'm a moron who only reads what he wants. Plain as day that he was refering to NCAA and I make a stupid comment. My appologies, I really feel like an idiot now.

I didn't post it to make you feel like an idiot. If you want to, you can delete the post, I'll delete both of mine, and we'll pretend it never happened. We are the only two up this late anyway!

Wrong, 3 free, removal on 4th.

Thanks for all of your responses.
 

The bucket thing is obvious to me, but I cannot find a rule on it.

On the pitcher replacement, I certainly could have phrased it better. I think I have the answer I was looking for now, thanks. Per MLB/SS rules, there is no limit on how many times I can visit the mound without removing the pitcher, per game. Per pitcher per inning, sure, but there is no limit on how many times per game...

Also, we continuously run into instances where the line-up provided to us has either the wrong name, or number. When I appeal to the home umpire that the number is wrong, I almost always get, "well, the name is right though, so it is okay." Well, not every team has names on the jerseys. It amazes me how much we run into this, and further amazes me how it doesn't matter. It doesn't make me mad because this is just 11yo travel ball, but at some point, it will matter I hope. Otherwise, why do we need a line up at all?

thanks again...

I'm not quite sure what your point is here, but this is the rule -- it's the name that matters, not the number.

Okay, thanks. So without names on the jerseys, how is this verified? I've been in the other situation as well, where the number was right, but the name on the line up card did not match the name on the jersey, and was told the number was what mattered. Is it so difficult to have ALL of the information correct? I must admit, I have not looked very hard for a written rule on this, but will do so. Seems a given the accuracy of this would be mandatory.

I suggest a 'retina scan'. But seriously, does your league have an issue with 11 year old kids running around under assumed names? Call the kid's name loudly, and see who turns around....

That's incorrect, as was pointed out earlier.


Well, you sometimes have kids who show up without a jersey and borrow one, etc. But that's an issue for your league and your coaches. The umpire should check over the lineup at the plate meeting for duplicate numbers, names, etc. But if the numbers and names don't conflict on the lineup but there's still an error, that's all he can do at that time. He ain't going to the dugout to check IDs.

Re; the coach on the bucket...depending on the rule set, if the runner was standing on 3rd(not trying to advance) when the ball hit the bucket, and runner then didnt try to advance- I'd have nothing........I'd give the runner home if there was any chance that said runner was trying to advance, or in a position to(off bag between 3rd and home/watching the throw)- no advantage given to defense by me sending the runner back to 3rd.....

Archangel:
There are a couple of rules and guidance documents, at least in OBR and possibly in FED as well. "If a ball strikes a piece of equipment that is on LBT (usually the lip or top step of a dugout), and such ball would have entered DBT absent the contact with such equipment, then the ball is considered to have entered DBT." (OBR)

"If equipment left lying on LBT alters a play in favor of the offending team, the umpires are authorized to nullify the advantage by awarding bases, declaring outs, returning runners, etc." (FED)

Jerry

Or if the ball striking the bucket prevented it from going out of play ... I'd give the base.

I know you wern't trying to make me feel like an idiot, I did that on my own :p . We'll leave the posts, it will be a reminder that I should read the entire post before commenting.

Steve and Sohl... feel like an idiot, ahhhhh GUILTY... your right sohl... read it all, I briefly read 9-4a, saw the three free trips, posted it, then said to self...that can't be right, that's why I went back and added the second post. I knew better, read the three visits....thought..hmmm....posted...said to self, that can't be right...read on... and oops....:o

Actually, I was corrected. For FED, it is (3) free trips and removal on 4th and subsequent trips. Is NCAA different?

Case book 1-1-3 Situation, page 4

1.1.3 SITUATION: F4, Brown, listed in the batting order as wearing uniform No. 4, is wearing No. 21. After reaching base in the third inning, defensive coach appeals to the umpire that Brown is batting out of order. RULING: While Brown is in technical violation of the rule that requires that player's name, shirt number and position be on the lineup card, there is no penalty, since the batting-out-of-order rule requires only that the name be in the proper order. If the number was correct but the player batting was not Brown, the batting-out-of-order penalty would be imposed. Listing of both numbers and positions provides easier recordkeeping for scorekeepers and umpires.

Slightly. In FED, the team can use the three trips anytime (in regulation). In NCAA, a second trip to the same pitcher int he same inning causes the removal, and the second trip can't occur with the same batter.

In extra innings, FED gets one trip per inning (not one trip per pitcher per inning) and unused trips from regulation do not carry over. In NCAA, teh team gets one extra trip if the game goes to extra innings, and unused trips do carry over.

So why have numbers at all?

Seriously, I said I wasn't mad about it.

Not seeing where the ball would have gone to, how would you know if the runner could advance. As the third base coach in this situation, I can tell you that depending on the riccochet off the fence, we may have tried it.

After this game, the umpire advised me that he should have given the runner the base. But it did not matter ultimately.

Someone point me to a rule that mentions the bucket please?

Jerry, where did you find this OBR ruling?

DG,

Under OBR, the following works for me:

Under FED, I think 1-3-7 does the trick:

Edited to add, in response to bossman's query:

From the JEA discsussion of 3.14:

JM

JM

3.14 carrys no penalty.

1-3-7 provides for umpire to use judgement.

JEA comment on 3.14 allows me to rule that a thrown ball was prevented from entering the dugout by a glove on the lip of the dugout so I should rule it would have entered the dugout and thus DBT and award bases accordingly.

Now let's say the runner rounded 3B, did not appear to have any intention
of going home on the overthrow, the ball bounces off the bucket. Unless hitting the bucket prevented the ball from entering DBT, I have nothing. I don't see an "automatic" on this in OBR or FED.

Of course OBR is not going to cover coaches sitting on buckets outside the dugout because it ain't happening, and shouldn't happen in FED, so the rules can't completely cover stuff that ain't supposed to be happening.

DG,

I believe we are on the same page on this question. If I'm the umpire, all of the benefit of the doubt is going in favor of the team whose coach wasn't sitting on a bucket outside the dugout.

JM

All we have to do as umpires is award the appropriate team and it will start to curtail the practice real quick, this is if they refuse to comply to your request to move into the dugout of course.

It's a hypothetical rules question, because I don't allow coaches to sit in front of the dugout on buckets.

The bucket does not have to prevent the ball from going in DBT - the question is what might have happened if the bucket wasn't there. If not hitting the bucket could have allowed the runner to advence as opposed to the ball bouncing off the bucket towards HP giving the defense an advantage, then you can award HP. For example, if the ball doesn't hit the bucket, maybe it rolls to the fence where a fielder has to run 40 feet further away from HP as opposed to the ball bouncing off the bucket 20 feet closer to HP. It's still a judgment as to whether the bucket had any effect.

The closest thing I can find to it is the CB 1-3-7 Situation B. Not exact, but close enough to give you the idea.

Like I said, judgement. That means there is no automatic award as was previously suggested. Keep them in the dugout and you don't have this issue.