A little help, gentlemen

[BktBallRef]

"In the past week I had three different crews call this play differently and with different reasoning. This happened in Washington High School Baseball, I do not know if that matters or not. I believe that the first is correct, but would like your opinion.

An infielder (a pitcher in all three of my cases-either he was fielding a batted ball or he stepped back off the rubber and tried to pick a runner at first) throws the ball out of play.
Case 1- My batter was already safe at first on the play (on a batted ball), before the ball went out of play. He was awarded 2 bases and ended up on 3rd base.
Case 2- My runner was leading off of 1st base, the pitcher stepped back off the rubber and threw the ball out of play. The umpire awarded 2 bases and my runner ended up on 2nd base. It was explained that since the runner dove back to 1st base that was his 1st awarded base and his 2nd awarded base put him on 2nd base.
Case 3_ My batter was already safe at first on the play (on a batted ball), before the ball went out of play. He is awarded 2 bases and ends up on 2nd base. It was explained to me that the bases are awarded from were the runner was at the time of the throw and since he had not yet reached 1st base (at the time of the throw), 1st base was his 1st awarded base and 2nd base his 2nd awarded base. "

This should be NFHS rules. Thanks!

[UmpJM]

BktBallRef,

#1. It depends where the runner was when the errant throw left the infielder's hand. If the batter had already reached 1B at that point in time (and if any other runners had also reached their advance base) the award is 2 bases from that point in time - i.e., 3B. Otherwise, the award is 2 bases from the time the pitcher initiated his pitching motion - i.e., 2B.

#2. The umpire has demonstrated a lot of potential to become a coach. It makes no difference which way the runner was headed. Two bases beyond his last legally attained base - i.e., 3B.

#3. Sounds like they got this one right - sort of. The point in time that the ball went out of play is not relevant. If the errant throw resulted from the first play by an infielder AND the BR had not reached 1B at the time of the throw, the award is 2 bases Time of Pitch - i.e., 2B for the batter.

JM

(edited to correct typos)

[SAump]

Looking at the baserunning awards table in FED rulebook.

5. First throw by an infielder and the ball goes out of play or lodges in or under fence
Award two bases (batter and runners) from base occupied at time of pitch

6. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder and the ball goes out of play or lodges in or under fence
Award two bases (batter and runners) from base occupied at time of throw

Hope it helps.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

"In the past week I had three different crews call this play differently and with different reasoning. This happened in Washington High School Baseball, I do not know if that matters or not. I believe that the first is correct, but would like your opinion.

An infielder (a pitcher in all three of my cases-either he was fielding a batted ball or he stepped back off the rubber and tried to pick a runner at first) throws the ball out of play.
Case 1- My batter was already safe at first on the play (on a batted ball), before the ball went out of play. He was awarded 2 bases and ended up on 3rd base.
Case 2- My runner was leading off of 1st base, the pitcher stepped back off the rubber and threw the ball out of play. The umpire awarded 2 bases and my runner ended up on 2nd base. It was explained that since the runner dove back to 1st base that was his 1st awarded base and his 2nd awarded base put him on 2nd base.
Case 3_ My batter was already safe at first on the play (on a batted ball), before the ball went out of play. He is awarded 2 bases and ends up on 2nd base. It was explained to me that the bases are awarded from were the runner was at the time of the throw and since he had not yet reached 1st base (at the time of the throw), 1st base was his 1st awarded base and 2nd base his 2nd awarded base. "

This should be NFHS rules. Thanks!

Case 1: Unless F1 threw after the BR reached first (and all other runners attained the advance base), the award is 2 bases from the time of the pitch. Second base.

Case 2: The umpire is a moron. 2 bases from the time of the throw. Since F1 stepped off, the award is THIRD.

Case 3: The umpire is right, likely for the wrong reason. First play by an infielder and the BR hadn't reached first, it's time of the pitch. Award second.

As long as guys like this work, I'm a freaking genius.

[jkumpire]

Where do you live? What state are you in? What is the local rate for doing FED games?

Sounds like some of us can go make some $$$ where you are at.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Where do you live? What state are you in? What is the local rate for doing FED games?

Sounds like some of us can go make some $$$ where you are at.

His post said this was "Washington base ball", but his profile says he's in Stedman, NC.

[DG]

Originally Posted by GarthB

His post said this was "Washington base ball", but his profile says he's in Stedman, NC.

Washington, NC is 2 hours 34 minutes from Stedman, NC. A bit far for regular season games though.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Where do you live? What state are you in? What is the local rate for doing FED games?

Sounds like some of us can go make some $$$ where you are at.

BktBallRef isn't a baseball umpire. He officiates football and basketball......and not too badly either, I guess, having been selected to do state high school championship games in both sports. He moderates other discussion boards, including the NFHS forums. The questions that he posts here usually come from these other forums that he moderates; he's just looking for expert opinions from here to back up or disprove answers that he got elsewhere.

Does that answer your questions?

[greymule]

The awarding of "the base you were retreating to plus one" is so common a myth that I wonder whether anyone has ever extended that principle to its logical result on other plays:

Abel on 1B is stealing on the pitch. Baker lines a ball into right-center. Abel is on his way to 3B when F9 makes a diving catch. Abel, retreating, is between 2B and 3B when F9 throws the ball over F3 and into DBT. Since Abel was between 2B and 3B when the throw left F9's hand, his two-base award would be 2B and 1B!

And if we stretch it further, if Abel had been stealing and Baker hit a long, high drive that F9 ended up catching, and Abel was actually around 3B when the ball left F9's hand, Abel would be awarded 3B and 2B, though I guess he'd still have to retouch 1B. If he was really fast and had already scored when the ball left the fielder's hand, they'd have to put him at 3B after his reverse award of home and 3B.

(Since the OP cited NFHS, I know the runner would not be able to return legally unless he actually made it back around 2B when the ball entered DBT. So we'll have to make my plays OBR. Still, the "one plus one" myth is common in both.)

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Where do you live? What state are you in? What is the local rate for doing FED games?

Sounds like some of us can go make some $$$ where you are at.

The game was not played where I'm at. It was asked on a discussion board that I moderate.

That being said, there are officials who make the wrong call based on rule misinformation everywhere. So just ask around if you need to pick up some games.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

[mike1989]

first throw by any infielder or pitcher off rubber is 2 bases from time of pitch.Pitcher on rubber is one base .

[soundedlikeastrike]

1 out,R1. Flyball to right, R1 goes 1/2 way to 2nd, does not retag 1B.

F9 makes the catch sees R1 returning to 1B, he throws to F3 at 1B to try and double R1 off. The ball goes into DBT.

Brace yourselves: in USSSA Slow Pitch Softball the award is 2nd base, the base he must retag and one. I lost an appeal of this very play in a state tournament, I was a player. Now interestingly enough, same play with R1 tagging then being thrown behind, returning towards 1B when the ball goes out of play, is indeed awarded 3B.. Pretty bizarre if ya ask me, or several thousand other umpires.

Do you think we ever get the wrong call by Umpires that cross over and also do USSSSA baseball?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by mike1989

first throw by any infielder or pitcher off rubber is 2 bases from time of pitch.Pitcher on rubber is one base .

Well ... you're correct much of the time, just not all of the time. Read the other posts for the complete right answer.

[bigda65]

SLAS,

That is hilarious,

I lost a bet with a guy over the same thing,
At the time was umpiring baseball, and was coaching my wifes womens softball team. And yes it was USSSA.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

BktBallRef isn't a baseball umpire. He officiates football and basketball......and not too badly either, I guess, having been selected to do state high school championship games in both sports. He moderates other discussion boards, including the NFHS forums. The questions that he posts here usually come from these other forums that he moderates; he's just looking for expert opinions from here to back up or disprove answers that he got elsewhere.

Does that answer your questions?

expert opinions?? now that's funny! you want opinions...you certainly came to the right place!!