Bases Loaded Walk...
 

Bases are loaded and the batter walks, forcing in a run. However, the runner coming in from third does not touch home plate and heads toward the dugout. His coaches get his attention before he reaches the dugout and he hurries back toward the plate to tag it but he is first tagged with the ball.

Since the runner was forced in by the walk, does he remain safe to return to the plate and tag it or would he be out? At what point would his protection due to the force end?

Since he was forced in because of the walk it seems unlikely he could be called out. Even though he missed the plate, he did return to tag it, and the fact that the other team tagged him would by moot since he was forced home.

I realize that at any other base, the same situation could result in an out. Say the runner was forced to second on a walk, failed to touch second and advanced toward third. He could be put out.

The difference here is that at home plate there is no other base to advance to. A note I read to rule 7.04 indicated that a runner's exemption ends if he fails to touch a base before attempting to advance. Since he could not advance further than home plate, the question is whether his exemption expires once he takes a step beyond it or not.

Any opinions on the situation?

Home is no different my man. He's out!

Well I wondered if it might be different since at home there is no attempt to advance to the next base... the protection ends when you attempt to advance...

I called the kid out at first and then second guessed myself into letting him be safe because he had been forced in. I have heard opinions on both sides, but nobody has said anything definitive yet to convince me what the correct call is. It is the attempt to advance to the next base that makes it kind of hairy...

Just a guess but:

RULE 7.10, Approved Ruling (2)

". . . When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base."


So, he would be safe, since there was no base...


is the ball even dead? i'm just a basketball ref wandering over here!!

Anytime you miss a base, you are liable to be tagged out.

Why would it be any different than if the runner slid past home plate without touching it, and then was tagged out? On a base on balls, the ball remains alive. If this had been a dead-ball award, such as a HBP or the ball out of play, it would be different. The runner could then correct his mistake, and no play could be made on him. In this case, however, the runner is responsible for touching the bases in order, and if he misses one he can be called out on appeal.

It isn't a dead ball so the rule doesn't apply.

:D And if it were he could return until he touched the next base past home.

A base award does not relieve the runner of the obligation to touch the base awarded and any other base(s) required.

With a runner on 3rd, BR choses to run to 2nd after a BB, but misses 1b. On proper appeal can the BR be called out for missing 1b?

BR hits a single, and in making a wide turn at 1b draws a throw which goes OOB. BR is awarded two bases, and missed 2nd on his way to 3b. Can he be called out?

Yes, the runner from 3b needs a lecture from the head coach. How can you miss a base on a walk?

He is out of course.

Yes, 12 year olds.

This is the whole problem... we all know that if a runner misses a base he must go back and touch it or he may be called out.

The big difference here is that the runner was forced home on a walk. After missing home there is no other base to advance to... so as the rule is written he could not be called out since he did not try to advance a base. He did not make it to the dugout, the ball was still live on the BB, and yes they made a play on him. But, since he could not advance another base can they make a play on him if he was forced in on the walk?

I can't find a clear rule for the situation. As I just said, the closest rule states that if the runner advances to toward the next base then he loses his protection... but there is no base after home... so does he lose his protection or not?

"His coaches get his attention before he reaches the dugout and he hurries back toward the plate to tag it but he is first tagged with the ball."

I would have to say he is allowed to go back and touch, but in this case he was tagged out attempting to do so (a play being made on him).

MMoose..
Are you saying that the runner could just leave third and walk directly into the dugout without liability to be put out? I think his protected status ends when he passes the plate and does not touch. It is much the same as the BR on a base on balls. He is protected only to the base.

How can you miss a base on a walk?

In Fed a few years ago, I had a runner fail to touch home after being forced in on a walk. He stopped five feet in front of the plate, picked up the bat, and went directly to his bench. The catcher didn't notice, but the defensive coach saw it from the dugout, so they got the out on appeal.

No... the runner MUST touch home. The question is when his protection ends when forced on a walk. Since he is not advancing toward the next base (because there isn't one) it seems he should still be protected. Should he not touch home and enter the dugout, then the defense can put him out on appeal. As I am seeing it, protection ends when you progress toward the next base, and in this case he would still be protected after passing home since there is not another base.

Here is the exact wording from my 2007 little league rule book... a note to rule 7.04:
"When a runner is entitled to a base without liability to be put out, while the ball is in play, or under any rule which the ball is in play after the runner reaches an entitled base, and the runner fails to touch the base to which that runner is entitled BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT BASE, the runner shall forfeit the exemption from liability to be put out and may be put out by tagging the base or by tagging the runner before that runner returns to the missed base."

MY whole point is... if there was no attempt to advance to the next base (because there isn't one), he can't be put out. The defense in this case would have to wait a moment and then appeal once the player is in the dugout.

The difference with a BR advancing to first on a walk is that he CAN advance toward the next base and lose that protection.

Mental masturbation with a loose grip.

What if the defensive coach asked for "time" to visit with his F1, and it is
granted , before the runner has an opportunity to correct his mistake ? :eek:

Read the casebook (The Richt Call) comment for 7.04.

Read 7.08(k)

Learn how the rules work.

Well said....pretty well sums it up....

I believe a dose of common sense in this situation is called for. Don't make it any harder than it is.

griff

Well since it was a live ball the ump should not grant time until all runners have reached their base and play has ended. At which point the appeal is still an option.

7.08 would not apply since the runner advances home without liability to be put out.

The whole matter hinges on the question of whether protection ends after passing home or not... and since there is no base to advance to beyond home, it would seem that the runner is allowed to return and tag without liability as well.

Between this and a couple other forums I have posted the question in, it seems people are fairly evenly split. There does not seem to be a rule that clearly addresses the issue and is open to the interpretation of the umpire.

I have Hunter Wendelstadt's email... thinking I might give him a try :P

7.08k certainly does apply here. Just because a runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out, he must still touch the base to which he is awarded.

If he makes no attempt to return to touch home, the catcher can just stand on the plate with the ball and appeal to the umpire, and that runner is OUT!

If he does attempt to return (he must do so before reaching DBT), then he must be tagged.

7.05 Casebook comments:

"The fact a runner is awarded a bases or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and any intervening bases."

I don't think this forum is split on this issue at all. It seems that everyone who has responded to your question has the runner out. You are the only holdout for safe. I find it hard to believe that there is any split on the other forums concerning this issue either. You can't seriously allow a runner to miss a base on the basis of a loophole in the wording of a rule.

Are you really just Joe West in disguise?:)

I believe I read this once or twice somewhere.

If the runner does not return immediately, he is liable to be put out on appeal. If the runner makes an attempt to return, he must be tagged out. If the ball becomes dead, the runner cannot return and is liable to be put out upon proper appeal.

Just posting this shows your lack of understanding about basic rules. My post was entirely correct. I was not speaking about apples or oranges or any other fruit. The runner passed the plate without touching it. That is not abandonment, it's a missed base. Pull your head out.

Between this and a couple other forums I have posted the question in, it seems people are fairly evenly split.

Their URLs please.

I need a good laugh...where are these boards?

It's the one(s) Hunter Wendlestedt frequents, as well :D

it's an appeal play..he's supposed to touch home, the ball is live, he doesn't touch home...they appeal in FED, he's out...unless he can go touch home plate without being tagged or an appeal at home plate.
what if offense calls and is granted time defore the defense has the option to appeal...what happens here? FED and OBR?? sorry guys, no rule books here at the office today...

FED allows dead-ball appeals.

I understand the dead ball rule LMan...thank you...so basically this wouldn't change anything...when "Time" is asked for and granted...the player could still walk up and touch the plate and the defense could still appeal. I get it...but it seems like a heck of a lot of stuff going on while "time" is called...do you see what I'm asking or am I being unclear? Fortunately this has a slim chance of happening, but I want to get it right if/when it ever comes up...

I'm continually amazed at how we can continue to debate something thats really pretty cut and dried. 7.08 does definitely apply, please confirm with Hunter.

Happenned to me couple years back, same sitch you explained here. I posted the play on here. Got some interesting responses.
My R3 was jogging into home plate, and maybe he hadnt been there in awhile, as he missed home by about 6 inches or so, and kept right on going to the 1st base dugout, getting high fives from his equally ignorant teammates.
Course def mgr and F2 noticed this, and yelled to F1 for the ball. F2 got it, stepped on home, and I called him out. ONLY after that the defense was calling for the ball, did R3 turn around and try to get back to home.
Off mgr said that his runner needed to be tagged. Told him not in this case.
To me, since R3 was not trying to touch home, and was making no attempt to come back and touch, and didnt until prompted by the actions of the defense, I saw this as an appeal play. That seemed to be the overwhelming opinion also, of those I asked locally here, and by others on this board.
The reason for others saying it had to be a tag, was whether the action was still "hot" or not. Relaxed vs unrelaxed. Guess for that play, its ones own opinion of hot or not.
For me, when during a game (in a non timeout sitch) are things more relaxed than during a walk? What happens on a walk, usually? Pitcher gets the ball back, walks around the mound, looking around, maybe wondering how plate guy missed the pitch. Other fielders are coming out of their "ready" stances putting their hands on their hips, or looking up in the stands. Any runners are slowly (sometimes walking) to the next base. When is it more "relaxed". Basically everyone is in casual mode.
So for me....R3 has given up on the play. I had an out.
On this forum, the most vocal (of course) was the esteemed Tim C. He was on the side of the action still being hot. Needing a tag.
For me there is a difference.. runner coming into home on a hit...slides, misses home...F2 misses tag. Then the obligatory scramble for the plate. Yes, that of course requires a tag. But on the runner being forced home, and blows right by home.....tag of the plate is all I required.

My understanding of relaxed is different from your description. My understanding is that it has nothing to do with the defensive players, and everything to do with the player who missed, or thinks he might have missed, the base. If he is not attempting to return to the base, the action is relaxed. If he has started an attempt to return, no matter how far away he may be, it is unrelaxed.

Is my understanding a misunderstanding?

it needs to lecture right ? :)

The difference here is the runner actually reached the dugout and has lost his protection. He can be called out on appeal. Because it is an awarded base, the runner can correct a running violation unless a succeeding runner has scored in front of him. For example - R1 goes to second, overruns and F2 decides to make a play throws into OF allowing R2, who has reached 3B, to score. R3 is no longer protected and can be called out on appeal. Until it is clear that R3 no longer is making an attempt to touch HP, I would allow him to touch and score.

Ref: 8-2-5 - ART. 5... If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.

Of course the operative word in this is immediately. How close is he to dugout, how much time has elasped, etc. It becomes a judgment call.

How can a succeeding runner score in front of him?

I should have said a following runner, i.e. R2. I used the wrong word by mistake.

Succeeding is the correct word. It means "following". I think the question regarded the statement "in front of him".

Thank you - I had the right intention, just the wrong wording. Somehow, I got ahead of myself!!

And that's exactly what happened. All runners had reached, or passed, in the case of R3, their awarded bases. BU grants time for the defensive coach.
Runner is sent back to the plate after time is called, and touches home, while the ball is dead. D coach has his team appeal when ball is put into play, and plate umpire rings him up.