Was I being a B!tch?
 

By what rule? I don't concern myself too much with where they warm up. However, if I ask to inspect bats and helments and coach goes into a rant and tosses them onto the field I would get rid of him.

DG,

Although probably more focused on the "remarks", I beleive 3.3.1 Situation G could be used to support the position that the other team shouldn't be on the field during their opponent's warmups.

JM

I don't have my book here, but doesn't 3-3-1g require that the players of the team not warming up remain in deadball territory?

Garth,

3-3-1g(5) says exactly that, with the exception of the bullpen.

JM

w_sohl, you are correct, that is the way we enforce it here on the left coast. Now, if a coach did that to me, he would spend the next several minutes putting everything back in the dugout, post haste. His next option would be to watch the game from the comfort of the bench, and his final option would be to start warming up the bus.

My second concern is why does this coach have an umpires number on speed dial? HMMMM, we have problems in River City. I would be very curious about this relationship. I would have never even taken the coach's phone in the first place, apart from being curious about who in my association is on that coach's speed dial.

Seems to me like someone has allowed this coach to believe that he controls the game, and somebody needs to 're-educate' this individual.

Thanks. That's a heck of a memory. 3-3-1g and Casebook 3.3.1 Situation G are about players committing unsportsmanlike acts, such as being on the field during warmups (??). Situation G actually mentions the team lining up on the first base foul line making unsportsmanlike comments to the team warming up.

I think it would be OOO to worry about this if one team is entirely in the outfield and no unsportsmanlike comments are being made. The normal practice around here is for both teams to warmup in the outfield and then they take turns using the field for outfield/infield practice while the other is in the dugout.

Does 3-3-1g in the rulebook specifically state it is for unsportsmanlike acts only? I understand that is the casebook justification.

If a team is taking infield, our practice is to not allow the other team to be in live ball territory, period. If they want to toss the ball, they can go outside the fence and do it in DBT.

Garth,

The one being discussed is the fifth of five under the heading:

So, it does kind of say that. Not necessarily really unsportsmanlike, but, kind of "technically". I think I'd go with the local custom and practice on this one, as long as there wasn't an issue.

JM

He tosses the stuff, I toss him. End of problem.

He calls another umpire on the phone, I toss him. End of problem.

I don't think you have to wait for a specific unsportsmanlke act to invoke this particular rule. It appears to me to be preventative in nature and appropriate to enforce before a problem occurs.

Agreed. This would beat my earliest ejection, one at the plate conference.

NF 3-3-1
A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

g. commit any unsportsmanlike acts to include, but not limited to,

5. be in live ball territory (excluding team's bullpen area) during the opponent's infield practice prior to the start of the game.

Sounds like this covers it.

I hate all the bulls*** that happens before a game. Standing around on my own/in the fan seating area waiting for my partner to show up for 20 minutes, coaches not hustling to ground rules, delay in getting game started, having to request game balls from coaches, coaches getting *****y when I ask for 3 instead of 2, etc.; but especially the thing about having to stand around the diamond on my own until my plate partner arrives 5 minutes before first pitch.

I have never seen/had a team take infield after Ive arrived at a field. They do outfield drills, calestentics (sp), and long toss, but not traditional infield. So, I guess this hasn't come up for me (yet).

Having said that, I will encounter it in my next game :rolleyes:

Knowing what the rule states and applying it with some logic are two different things. I'm not at the field to be a traffic cop before the game. I like to arrive early enough to take my time getting my gear on and going over a pre-game with my partner. I usually try to time my entrance to the field area to coincide with the teams wrapping up fielding practice ~ 10 minutes before the start of the game. This allows time to check equipment and prior to the plate conference.

A few years back I was scheduled to work a Babe Ruth game. I entered the field about 10 minutes before game time and asked the coach to wrap up his fielding practice. He initially ignored me so I repeated my request. He starts to get pissy and tells me that they just got on the field because the other team took too long. He then said that I should have been there earlier to get the other team off the field. I politely told him (okay, not so politely) that it wasn't my job to babysit. "I'm here to umpire a baseball game that WILL START IN 5 MINUTES. BRING THEM IN."

Wait by the car.

If your partner is not there 15 minutes before game time, get your gear on or go home.

Whoops, hang on there...you are assuming he has his license.

1) Team V is in violation of NFHS R3-S3-A1.g.5 with regard to its pre-game warmups. I would consider this infraction to be minor in nature as defined in the Penalty. Team V does not and should not be in the outfield while Team H is conducting its infield warmups both from an unsportsmanlike standpoint as well as a safety standpoint.

2) The instant V-HC continued his rant, I would have restricted him to the dugout for the game and as far as his request for my name, I would have told him that I will sign his scorebook and include my OhioHSAA number.

3) The instant he threw the bats and helmets out of the dugout and onto the field, I would have ejected him. The OhioHSAA penalty for ejection for disqualification for the rest of the day, meaning the second game of a DH if the ejection was in the first game plus the offender must sit out games at all levels until the school has played two games the level of the game in which the ejection occured. If this is the second time the individual has been ejected during season the offender is done for the season and if the offender is a coach, he and his principal get to have a personal meeting with the Commissionr of the OhioHSAA.

4) Because the V-HC was no longer in the game, there would have been need for you to talk to his unethical, lower than a snake's belly, chicken poop, umpiring buddy.

MTD, Sr.

In the coaches defense...
 

he didn't throw them from the dugout onto the field, he just started pulling them out of the bag and tossing them in a manner that was meant to imply disrespect, if that makes any sense. If he had actually tossed them from the dugout, he would have been restricted before the plate meeting. I just went over, checked the equipment and made sure they had to pick them up from where he left them.

Why are you not waiting in the parking area? You should not be waiting in the "fan" area for your partner. So what if your partner doesn't show and it's 10 minutes to game time, do you run to the car and put on the plate gear? There is absolutely no excuse to be waiting anywhere but by your car (although I'm sure you will come up with some BS to qualify this).

[QUOTE]First and Foremost the coaches should be well aware of these rules. Just like when FED changed the bat restrictions from -5 to -3.

I do not know if this is the case in your area but from my experience this is what I have found to be a MAJOR problem. Some umpires especially those that fall in the category "I am in it for the money only" couldn't care less what the teams are doing. They show up start the game and go home and that's it.

I have umpired games (towards the end of the season mind you) in which I have checked the bats/ hats and had to throw out at least 2 bats and 1 helmet was cracked.

The response from the coaches:

We have been using those all year long.

Therefore, the main problem you might be encountering is that the majority of umpires who umpired this coaches game did not make him conform to the rules as evidenced by the phone call.

The aforementioned should be brought up in the association meetings.

In addition, your thread falls under the category of such phrases as:

1. Blue you are the only one who called a balk on us all year long.
etc. etc.

If the coach as in your thread is really giving you a hard time, then it's See ya coach you can warm up all day long in the "other" parking lot.

Pete Booth

Yeah, I know what you mean. This is similar to when a partner of mine, during a game, told a coach that he needed more baseballs. The coach unwrapped two and then dropped them on the ground and walked away.

He was told to keep walking.

Actually the "BS" that I have to "qualify this" is that I do not have my license. No reason to get jipped for insurance costs. 19 year old male; certainly gonna cost way too much to get my G2 right now.

Do you know of any other places I can go before the game? I could hide out in the dirty umpire's changeroom. I just don't want to take the chance of my partner showing up late, going straight to the diamond, and making me go to the diamond so that it looks like I was late.

10 minutes before game tie? You should be on the field checking equipment at least 15 minutes before game time. If by then, it's about 10 minutes before game time, if your partner hasn't shown up, you tell the coaches you'll be right back and you now run to your car and gear up and hope that your partner has finished putting his on and is on his way to the field and meets you half way.

10 minutes before game tie? You should be on the field checking equipment and walking the field at least 15-20 minutes before game time. If by then, it's about 10 minutes before game time, if your partner hasn't shown up, you tell the coaches you'll be right back and you now run to your car and gear up and hope that your partner has finished putting his on and is on his way to the field and meets you half way.

I wouldn't put any stock into that statement. I got that once after disqualifying 4 cracked helmets and replyed, "Coach, I threw out 3 helmets when I had you two weeks ago."

I never enter a field without my partner, and my partner doesn't go on the field without me. We always go together. If he doesn't show, (10 minutes before game time) then and only then will I get my gear on and enter the field alone.

You shouldn't be on the field checking the equipment alone in the first place, unless you are working alone.

We have game administrators at each contest that regulate pre-game stuff.
We don't have jurisdiction until we enter the field, and especially for a JV game - its just not that big a deal.

Now once I enter the field, then I'll tell a coach to clear the field etc., I have noticed a team in violation before as I was getting dressed in the dressing room (several of our fields have dressing areas for the umpires)

I found a runner to inform the coach that they needed to fix the situation and let them handle it.

I'm sorry, but I'm never letting a coach run over me once I'm on the field.
If he doesn't like it tough, see you later.

Thanks
David

ahem. :cool:


Does Canada have Chuck E Cheeses?

Is this the room where the dirty umpire goes to change clothes?:rolleyes:

Yes we do have the odd Chuck E Cheese in Canada, but I am getting a bit old for that kind of thing, plus that is somewhere I would be more likely to go after a game.

Maybe that's how you do things in Maine. Where I am, we go to the field about 10 minutes before game time, check the equipment, hold a very short plate meeting, and start the game.

When we arrive (about 30 minutes before game time), we notify game management (normally the home coach) that we are there.

That reminds me of the time I saw an umpire running to the ball diamond, in his plate equipment, trying to get there as fast as possible so as not to be late for ground rules. When he gets there his partner informs him that he is actually doing bases.

What kinds of equipment do you check? I would only have an issue with equipment if somebody appealed it (ie illegal bat, grey or white pitching glove, white sleeves, etc.).

Same here. Arrive game-minus-30, make a cpl phone calls if partner is not there by game-minus-20, suit up, enter field, equip check at game-minus-10, play ball.

FED and NCAA require we check bats and helmets for wear/damage. We do it every game. We always go as a crew to each dugout, together.

In Ohio, teams must have bats with the BESR certification mark, and helmets with the NOCSAE logo imprint, in addition to checking for unsafe equip (cracks, dents, ect)......

That's not how we do things in Maine. In Maine at least for most associations, we do things in the manner Rich described. Most umpires arrive 45 minutes before game time, if you're not there by 20 minutes before, if you had the plate, you don't have it now.

Up north where the schools are very spread out, sometimes its impossible to get to a game 30 minutes before but the effort should be made. Showing up anything less than 30 minutes before a game is something that makes me sick to do. 45 to 60 is my comfort zone, especially for freshman and above. Lower levels 30 minutes is fine.

Sigh! Here in the USA, if we are working a game with FED rules, we are required by rule to check the bats & helmets. It sounds like you are not doing High School games there in Canada, are you?

wmblue. Please don't try to speak for everyone is Maine. I agree with what you are saying about arrival times, I arrive at least 30-45 minutes before games, if work time allows, but never less that 15 minutes. I also agree what has been said that an umpire should not be sitting in the stands waiting for his partner. He should, most likely be in or by his car reading the rulebook.

I also agree about your 20 minute time limit, but, if my partner hasn't shown up with 10 minutes before game time, I will assume that I will PROBABLY be doing this game alone and start prepping for the game, walking the filed, checking equipment, etc. I will not, and am sure that not too many others will wait for an appeal or for someone to be hurt by inappropriate or damaged equipment like some others. If & when my partner finally shows up, then we will, at least, be that far ahead in getting the game started.

It has been said that some will never enter the field without his partner. Sometimes you may not have a choice. Leaving the field with your partner is a different story

This my be just a personal decision and not related to any one particular association, but that's the way that I do it, and several other people in our District do it the same way and I have done it this way for a long time and not just in the state of Maine.

No, I don't do high school games. I think it's unfortunate though that you are required to check equipment before a game; they sure don't do that in the major leagues, most likely because it is up to the teams to decide if any of their equipment is old and worn out.

The major leagues are comprised of adults.

We check helmets for cracks and other weaknesses that render them ineffective and risk injury to players as well as making sure they have proper approval for use.

We check bats for legality as well as safety issues.

I don't believe it is unfortunate that the safety of players is a concern here. Some teams require players to provide their own helmets and bats and are not directly involved in their maintenance. If umpires were not required to check these prior to games, many would never be checked out during an entire season.

CanadaUmp:

It is a requirement because bats and helmets are a safety issue in the NFHS rules. And quite frankly, checking bats and helmets is no different than walking the playing field to check for safety hazzards. Trying to compare MLB to H.S. baseball is like trying to apples to oranges, it cannot be done.

MTD, Sr.

Correct. In the past, I have thrown out 3 catcher's HSMs in one game.

As another poster mentioned forget about comparing MLB to what we do.

In a way I happen to agree with you. I fully understand the safety concerns regarding faulty equipment but the onus should be on the coaches. if a player does come to bat with faulty equipment we simply enforce the rule. if it's an illegal bat we toss the bat and record an out.

I do not know what the insurance costs or lawsuit percentages are in Canada, but here in the US most of these safety issues did come about because of insurance / lawsuit issues.

In reality it doesn't take that long to inspect the bats/ hats. The coaches are instructed to have all the bats / hats laid out for us and we inspect them for proper LOGO requirements (ie BESR certified) and also remove any bats/ helmets that are cracked or in the case of metal bats dented.

this 5 minute task (if that long) can save an umpire a possible lawsuit should something happen because someone got injured using faulty equipment.

Pete Booth

In football, we check the players to ensure that they are wearing the proper pads. In basketball, we check the players to ensure that they are not wearing any unsafe or illegal equipment. It's a safety and liability issue. It also ain't a big deal.

Hi Jurassic

On a different note

This must be your time of year. A lot of controversy surrounding not only the BIG DANCE but the Conference Championships as well especially the Nevada Coach.

Give it to me straight

Was the Foul Committed by Oden of the Buckeyes against Xavier Flagrant?

Also, would you have suspended the Nevada Coach for at least one game during the March Madness tournament after his attacks on the official working his game.

If these issues were discussed on the basketball Forum please direct me to the appropriate thread(s) and I will check it out

Thanks

Pete Booth

Pete:

I do not think JR will mind if I jump in here and answer your question concerning the foul by Oden, espcially since I am an Ohio State University fan. No, it was not a flagrant personal foul, BUT it was an intentional personal foul. I was disappointed that the officials only called it a common (a personal foul that is neither flagrant nor intentional nor committed against a player in the act of shooting) foul. It was an ugly looking incident that cast an unfavorable light on OSU sports and in this case could very well affected the outcome of the game.

MTD, Sr.

1) Pete, as MTD said, the foul wasn't flagrant. Flagrant fouls are usually reserved for fighting, an attempt to injure, or extreme unsporting behavior. They come with an automatic ejection, 2 free throws and the ball out-of-bounds. The foul that Oden committed was an intentional foul imo(and in the opinion of most other officials too). Intentional fouls are usually reserved for a lot of contact without playing the ball, which is what Oden did. The penalty for that is the same as a flagrant foul, but minus the ejection. On the play that you're talking about, the correct call imo would have been an intentional personal foul on Oden, which would have meant 2 shots for Xavier and the ball for a throw-in where the foul was committed. Here's two threads on it.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=32829
http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=32915

2) The Nevada coach is gonna get something out of it, and he sureasheck deserves it. As you can read from the thread that I'll attach, he was completely out of control. Apparently criminal charges were briefly considered, but the cop got talked out of them. Inexcusable behavior imo. My personal opinion was that more than one game was warranted.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=32644

Now that I think about it, I would almost prefer to have to do equipment checks. That gives me something to do before a game, and if my partner is really late I can simply stall for time abit with a couple extra minutes checking the equipment.

I doubt that an umpire in Baseball Ontario would get in trouble for not checking equipment if someone got hurt. It's not a policy for Minor Ball, but might be for high school.