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Shmuelg Sun Mar 11, 2007 06:15am
Two-ump question - check swing
 
Hi folks,

I ump and coach baseball here in Israel (yes!). Our games have two umps (if we're lucky!).

I have been told by a few folks here that if the BU is behind 2nd or SS (ie, not at first base), then the PU cannot refer to him for an appealed check swing. The reasoning is that the BU cannot see the swing from where he is standing, as he has to be down the line (first base or third base).

So, the question is twofold: Is this how you guys work?
Secondly, say the PU *does* ask the BU for help, by pointing at him. What is the BU to do?


My take on it is that the BU should be able to do this, as I think he can clearly see if the batter intended to swing or not. Whether he "broke his wrists" or not is only a small indicator of his intent. You can tell if a batter wanted to hit that ball, it's usually straight-forward.

What do you folks say?

Thanks,

Shmuel
www.eteamz.com/revavabaseball

Rich Sun Mar 11, 2007 08:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmuelg
Hi folks,

I ump and coach baseball here in Israel (yes!). Our games have two umps (if we're lucky!).

I have been told by a few folks here that if the BU is behind 2nd or SS (ie, not at first base), then the PU cannot refer to him for an appealed check swing. The reasoning is that the BU cannot see the swing from where he is standing, as he has to be down the line (first base or third base).

So, the question is twofold: Is this how you guys work?
Secondly, say the PU *does* ask the BU for help, by pointing at him. What is the BU to do?


My take on it is that the BU should be able to do this, as I think he can clearly see if the batter intended to swing or not. Whether he "broke his wrists" or not is only a small indicator of his intent. You can tell if a batter wanted to hit that ball, it's usually straight-forward.

What do you folks say?

Thanks,

Shmuel
www.eteamz.com/revavabaseball
A check swing appeal can be made from anywhere on the field. If you are playing by OBR or NCAA rules, the plate umpire is required to ask his partner.

justanotherblue Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:36am
Yes, you can ask for help. After the check swing, you should be calling BALL, No he didn't go. That is if you think he didn't go. If the defense asks for an appeal, you simply step out and ask your partner with your LEFT hand, Did he go. Your partner, should respond either, Yes he did or No, he didn't go. If he says yes he did, then you respond, Then that's a strike. There is no doubt it's a hard call for BU, but then again, that's a known problem with two man.

DG Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:50pm
"If you are in the infield and we have check swing appeal I will come to you, I am automatic, if they ask I come to you. If I missed a strike I want it back".

This is in my pregame, every time.

cbfoulds Sun Mar 11, 2007 03:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherblue
<SNIP> There is no doubt it's a hard call for BU, but then again, that's a known problem with two man.
Hard call? Not at all: did B or did he not attempt to hit the ball?
If you are 100% sure he did offer- YES, HE DID - "then that's a strike"
If you are not 100% sure he did - NO, HE DID NOT!

And, yeah, what DG said.

I see the board server has not "sprung forward".

rei Mon Mar 12, 2007 02:27am
I agree that your partner can help no matter where he is at! It is not that hard to call really, and each year, it is becoming more accepted that the BU can call it correctly from B or C!

Fans still don't like it. But, they are the same dummies who at a recent game I was on the plate claimed that a foul tip was a foul ball and the runner who stole should go back! :)

btdt Mon Mar 12, 2007 09:41am
Around here it has been accepted ever since I have been umpiring. Being as all umpire manuels I have say the same thing you would think it is an accepted practice everywhere. (except nfhs were pu isn't required, but should) If it isn't accepted in your area I can't help but ask ... who's running the show and why arn't they following sop?

PeteBooth Mon Mar 12, 2007 01:57pm
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmuelg
Hi folks,

I ump and coach baseball here in Israel (yes!). Our games have two umps (if we're lucky!).

I have been told by a few folks here that if the BU is behind 2nd or SS (ie, not at first base), then the PU cannot refer to him for an appealed check swing. The reasoning is that the BU cannot see the swing from where he is standing, as he has to be down the line (first base or third base).

So, the question is twofold: Is this how you guys work?
Secondly, say the PU *does* ask the BU for help, by pointing at him. What is the BU to do?


My take on it is that the BU should be able to do this, as I think he can clearly see if the batter intended to swing or not. Whether he "broke his wrists" or not is only a small indicator of his intent. You can tell if a batter wanted to hit that ball, it's usually straight-forward.

What do you folks say?

Thanks,

Shmuel
www.eteamz.com/revavabaseball
The applicable rules are:

OBR 9.01
(a) The league president shall appoint one or more umpires to officiate at each league championship game.


Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike.

Notice the rules do not say ANYTHING about the position of the BU.

As Rich said in OBR / NCAA we have to. In FED (HS rules) we do not "have to" however, even in a FED game most PU's will oblige.


Quote:
Secondly, say the PU *does* ask the BU for help, by pointing at him. What is the BU to do?
If I'm the BU I give the PU what I saw. Safe signal for a ball and an out signal for a strike.



Pete Booth

justanotherblue Mon Mar 12, 2007 04:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbfoulds
Hard call? Not at all: did B or did he not attempt to hit the ball?
If you are 100% sure he did offer- YES, HE DID - "then that's a strike"
If you are not 100% sure he did - NO, HE DID NOT!

And, yeah, what DG said.

I see the board server has not "sprung forward".

Simply put, when your in A with a left handed batter, it's not as easy to see as with a right handed batter, where you can clearly see the barrel of the bat, hands and hips of the batter. Not as clearly seen with a left handed batter. Same thing in B or C. There are angle advantages and not. Hard call, no, clearly seeing the bat breaking the plane of the plate, not so easily seen. Can I read the intent, probably, true travel of the bat head, probably not, can I make the call, you bet I will, either way, If I believe there was intent, with a good offer, no problem.

As for why others don't ask, or say you can't ask or see from the working area, training, knowledge, and a willingness to improve game to game. To quote Jim Evans, because Charlie wasn't taught it, it won't work.

canadaump6 Mon Mar 12, 2007 04:37pm
What is the reason for plate umpires not making the call on the check swing in the first place? Do they usually get blocked by the catcher, are they more focused on whether the ball was in the strike zone, or do they not want to give the teams something else to argue with them about?

bob jenkins Mon Mar 12, 2007 04:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
What is the reason for plate umpires not making the call on the check swing in the first place? Do they usually get blocked by the catcher, are they more focused on whether the ball was in the strike zone, or do they not want to give the teams something else to argue with them about?
Door number 2.

GarthB Mon Mar 12, 2007 05:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
What is the reason for plate umpires not making the call on the check swing in the first place? Do they usually get blocked by the catcher, are they more focused on whether the ball was in the strike zone, or do they not want to give the teams something else to argue with them about?
They have made a call. They've called the pitch a ball.

DG Mon Mar 12, 2007 06:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherblue
Simply put, when your in A with a left handed batter, it's not as easy to see as with a right handed batter
Like I said in pre-game, I'm automatic, so don't go to sleep in A with a LH batter. If you can't tell then fine, say "no he didn't go". If you can tell he did then I want the strike back.

rei Mon Mar 12, 2007 07:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by btdt
Around here it has been accepted ever since I have been umpiring. Being as all umpire manuels I have say the same thing you would think it is an accepted practice everywhere. (except nfhs were pu isn't required, but should) If it isn't accepted in your area I can't help but ask ... who's running the show and why arn't they following sop?
By "accepted", I mean by coaches/players. Some still "protest" loudly when the BU gives a strike while in B or C.

As umpires, we have accepted that "help" for as long as I can remember. :)

canadaump6 Mon Mar 12, 2007 07:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Door number 2.
So basically they are more focused on whether it's a ball or strike?

GarthB Mon Mar 12, 2007 07:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
So basically they are more focused on whether it's a ball or strike?

By rule, if the plate umpire has not called the pitch a ball, it cannot be appealed. Thus the PU has made a decision. I don't understand your confusion.

GarthB Mon Mar 12, 2007 08:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Speaking of the "weak" partner theory, I went to my partner to see if he knew what was and wasn't. The batter in my book had a swing, but when I checked he just gave me a big head shake as in a non verbal, "No".

If you felt the batter swung at the pitch, why did you go to your partner? Just call the strike.

justanotherblue Mon Mar 12, 2007 08:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG
Like I said in pre-game, I'm automatic, so don't go to sleep in A with a LH batter. If you can't tell then fine, say "no he didn't go". If you can tell he did then I want the strike back.

Ahhhh .......never mind:rolleyes:

LMan Tue Mar 13, 2007 09:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
So basically they are more focused on whether it's a ball or strike?

You cannot appeal a strike.

ctblu40 Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Speaking of the "weak" partner theory, I went to my partner to see if he knew what was and wasn't. The batter in my book had a swing, but when I checked he just gave me a big head shake as in a non verbal, "No".
So you like to "test" your partners during a game? That has got to be one of the most inappropriate ideas I've ever heard. This sort of thing could really get your BU into hot water. IMO, you're throwing him under the bus! Why can't we retain young umpires? Hmmm? Let's think

You get your calls and I'll get mine, if I need help on the checked swing, I really do need help.

canadaump6 Tue Mar 13, 2007 02:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
By rule, if the plate umpire has not called the pitch a ball, it cannot be appealed. Thus the PU has made a decision. I don't understand your confusion.
I'm wondering what the reason is for the plate umpire not being able to make the call on a check swing in the first place. I'd have thought that the plate umpire would have a better view of whether or not the batter checked his swing, just cause he's so much closer.

LMan Tue Mar 13, 2007 02:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
I'm wondering what the reason is for the plate umpire not being able to make the call on a check swing in the first place. I'd have thought that the plate umpire would have a better view of whether or not the batter checked his swing, just cause he's so much closer.

You've overplayed your hand.

ctblu40 Tue Mar 13, 2007 02:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Just to be brutally honest, I don't care if he called it a strike or not. He simply needs to learn his mechanics and rotations, of which he missed several in the games I worked with him. I tried to explain to him and to help him learn, but it was all for naught. I would tell him something and the next time the same situation came up he would miss it. He even called a balk on a pitcher for taking his signs after he came to his stop in the set position. I'm sure in time he'll find his own way under the bus.

Since you weren't there, don't be so quick to judge. Yeah, it's my fault he can't learn or listen.
It's hard to not be quick to judge when you said you knew the batter offered and called the pitch a ball, then checked with your partner just to see if he would screw the pooch (which it sounds like he did). I'm not saying that you need to be patient with him and keep teaching. If he's as weak an umpire as you describe, he'll find trouble on his own easy enough, why help him find said trouble?

I never said it was your fault he couldn't learn and listen, believe me when I say I've worked with plenty of guys just like him. But it seems to me that you were intentionally setting him up for failure. Aside from reveling in the misfortunes of others, I don't understand how or why you would intentionally miss a call of your own to see if he would get his right. Makes no sense to me.

GarthB Tue Mar 13, 2007 05:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
I'm wondering what the reason is for the plate umpire not being able to make the call on a check swing in the first place. I'd have thought that the plate umpire would have a better view of whether or not the batter checked his swing, just cause he's so much closer.

Holy Maple Leaf! You don't get it.

The PU DID MAKE A CALL. He called the pitch a ball because the pitch was not in the strike zone and he didn't believe the batter "went."

Rich Tue Mar 13, 2007 05:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Holy Maple Leaf! You don't get it.

The PU DID MAKE A CALL. He called the pitch a ball because the pitch was not in the strike zone and he didn't believe the batter "went."
Put your face about a foot from the side of a moving train and read the numbers on the cars.

Now back up 50 feet or so and do the same thing.

Which is easier?

Why would anyone think closer is better?

canadaump6 Tue Mar 13, 2007 07:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Holy Maple Leaf! You don't get it.

The PU DID MAKE A CALL. He called the pitch a ball because the pitch was not in the strike zone and he didn't believe the batter "went."
So the plate umpire in calling the pitch a ball on a check swing, is saying that the batter didn't go around. And his appeal to the base umpire is just that; an attempt to get another opinion on the call, even if he say it perfectly anyways.

GarthB Tue Mar 13, 2007 07:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
So the plate umpire in calling the pitch a ball on a check swing, is saying that the batter didn't go around. And his appeal to the base umpire is just that; an attempt to get another opinion on the call, even if he say it perfectly anyways.
EXACTLY!

OBR requires that he check with his partner if the defensive manager or catcher so requests.

And, remember, if he judges that the batter did "go", then he would call a strike and no appeal by the offense is allowed

BigUmp56 Tue Mar 13, 2007 08:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
You still don't get it. There is nothing about screwing the pooch involved. I stated, I felt that in my book the batter had swung. The call could go either way. I've been asked to go on appeals I didn't think were even close and have gotten the strike call. Whatever he decided was not even relevent to the case in point. Just give me a simple safe or out mechanic. Better he learn when there is someone willing to teach him, than when there is someone out there with that doesn't know or care. Hopefully, he learned from it.

A word wasn't even muttered about the call. Don't read so much into it. There are worse calls out there they can make which will get them into hot water faster than a checked swing.
I wonder just whom it is that doesn't get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL

I felt that in my book the batter had swung.

If you had an attempt, why did you call it a ball and then go for help? This isn't about what your partner did or didn't do.


Tim.

ctblu40 Tue Mar 13, 2007 08:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
You still don't get it. There is nothing about screwing the pooch involved. I stated, I felt that in my book the batter had swung. The call could go either way. I've been asked to go on appeals I didn't think were even close and have gotten the strike call. Whatever he decided was not even relevent to the case in point. Just give me a simple safe or out mechanic. Better he learn when there is someone willing to teach him, than when there is someone out there with that doesn't know or care. Hopefully, he learned from it.

A word wasn't even muttered about the call. Don't read so much into it. There are worse calls out there they can make which will get them into hot water faster than a checked swing.
Now I think I get it.... you were trying to point out that he should have used a mechanic... I agree.

Now, I think you've been missing my point. You were the plate umpire, a pitch came in that was outside the strikezone... however, in your opinion, the batter offered at the pitch.
Quote:
I felt that in my book the batter had swung
But you called it a ball just so you could appeal to BU to "teach" him to use a safe or out mechanic when giving you his opinion. Do you really not see anything wrong with that?

Edited to add: I'm not reading into it. You stated twice now that as the plate umpire, you called an "attempt" a ball just so you could go to BU.

UmpJM Tue Mar 13, 2007 09:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
When asked to appeal, I go when the defense asks. If I thought it was a strike attempt is irrelevant. ... I could have just stood up and said, "Strike, on the swing", but wasn't afforded that chance by the defense.
:eek:

And it's your partner who is "weak"?

I'll give you one thing, you certainly have a gift for irony.

JM

ctblu40 Wed Mar 14, 2007 01:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Oh my Lord, you should write children's books with that imagination. If he has been calling games for a month or more at least in HS, he should be familiar with a safe or out signal. When asked to appeal, I go when the defense asks. If I thought it was a strike attempt is irrelevant. Whatever your problem is, well your problem. I could have just stood up and said, "Strike, on the swing", but wasn't afforded that chance by the defense. Like I mentioned before, the call could go either way. I just felt like asking his opinion to see if he knew what was or wasn't. He gave me his call, which was acceptable in my book. It was his judgment. Whether he knew the difference, I don't know. However, he does know the proper mechanic as of today.

So get off the soapbox, the sky isn't falling Chicken Little..........:rolleyes:

Cut me some slack. I've had to work with guys that don't where to stand in "A". That have gone into the infield base line to call outs on fly balls. That thinks 1BLX is almost up to the forty five foot running lane.........;)
1. Its irrelelevant whether or not the defense asks you to appeal if you, as a plate umpire, have a strike, which you stated that you did. Why on earth would you go to your partner if in your judgment the batter offered at the pitch? If the defense asks for an appeal before you make your call, how about a simple "Yes you did" while pointing at the batter then signal strike?

2. You are the plate umpire but think that "If I thought it was a strike attempt is irrelevant." Yet I'm the one with the imagination?

3. At no point during this thread did I get personal. Yet after you paint yourself into a corner, you say I'm
Quote:
Chicken Little
and I need to
Quote:
get off the soapbox.
I guess that means I win, thanks.

A wise man once said, "It's better to say nothing and be thought a fool than..." well, nevermind.

BigUmp56 Wed Mar 14, 2007 05:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Oh my Lord, you should write children's books with that imagination. If he has been calling games for a month or more at least in HS, he should be familiar with a safe or out signal. When asked to appeal, I go when the defense asks. If I thought it was a strike attempt is irrelevant. Whatever your problem is, well your problem.

What part of this don't you understand?


9.02(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help of a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike.

If you're waiting for a long enough time for a coach to appeal before you declare the pitch........ your timing is terrible.


Tim.

BigUmp56 Wed Mar 14, 2007 06:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
My timing is fine, they just pulled the trigger too fast. Anyway, what the hell do I care about an OBR rule in a FED game.
It makes even less sense to ask your partner for help on this in a FED game where the request for an appeal is an option. So, you had a strike, waited to call it until the defense appealed, and then went for help on a call just to see what your partner would do? Un-freaking-real.


Tim.

Rich Wed Mar 14, 2007 07:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
It makes even less sense to ask your partner for help on this in a FED game where the request for an appeal is an option. So, you had a strike, waited to call it until the defense appealed, and then went for help on a call just to see what your partner would do? Un-freaking-real.


Tim.
It's only an option for those too stubborn to simply treat it like they would in an NCAA/FED game.

BigUmp56 Wed Mar 14, 2007 08:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
The defense in this case would have gotten their strike call, but they asked for an appeal before I could even mutter a word. They would have gotten their strike with just about two seconds of patience. Like I said before, whether my partner got the batter for an offer is irrelevant. In my mind, I thought he had offered. In his mind, he didn't. That is fine by me. I didn't know he wouldn't use the proper mechanic. It was only a low level game where possibly he learned more about rotations and mechanics.
You can dance around this all you want. This is just one more situation where you refuse to admit you blew it. You had a strike, which cannot be appealed, yet you granted the appeal any way to punish the defense for asking too quickly for an appeal.


Tim.

ctblu40 Wed Mar 14, 2007 09:11pm
I give up...
 
on trying to get you to admit you're wrong in this situation. With that I'll leave you with the words of a wise man
Quote:
No wonder you're so dizzy, you're always talking in circles.

Don't' worry, the fall won't hurt you, it's the final stop at the end.

Just keep telling yourself this, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it people like me".

ctblu40 Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:01pm
I sure am glad...
 
... I've decided to quote the posts to which I am replying! :D

bob jenkins Thu Mar 15, 2007 08:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
I have considered the source from where all the static is coming from.
Not calling a swinging strike because the defense "appealed too soon" is NOT a good game management technique, imo.

Your point about your partner not using proper mechanics is valid.

bob jenkins Thu Mar 15, 2007 08:43am
To all:

The personal nature of some of the posts in this (and other) threads is not allowed. Some individuals were "suspended" from this board several months ago for not heeding the warnings.

I ask you all to refrain from such attacks and to comment on the rule / play at hand -- recognizing that we can have different opinions -- especially on "game management" issues. And, making a personal comment and then deleting it still counts as making the attack.


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