play at the plate
 

Hey guys, can someone please clarify this rule. 10U USSSA tournament, fly ball to center, ball caught-runner at 3rd tags. Catcher is positioned about 4 feet up the line towards 3rd, the throw is perfect and catcher is waiting for the runner. The runner approaches catcher and jumps over the top of him, flipping and landing on home plate untouched. PU signals safe, then confers with BU and calls runner out. PU stated "runner has to slide". However the rule does not state that; The rule is 8.07.G and it states, “the runner must slide or seek to avoid contact”. Game was played under protest and the director of USSSA for our region stated The words “seek to avoid contact” are interpreted by the National Rules Committee as going “around” not “over” the catcher. This is taken from the National Federation of High School’s Baseball Rules. It’s a simple safety issue.
Whats the call guys, is he safe or out?

I would have him out for jumping over the catcher.

As of 2006, there was nothing in the USSSA rules saying it was illegal to leap over a defensive player. There is also nothing regarding that in OBR, which is what USSSA plays under. In FED, leaping or jumping a player not lying on the ground is illegal.

So unless there has been a USSSA rule change since last fall, I would say your regional director has misinterpreted the rule, especially if he has brought the FED rule book into the picture.

However, since he is the regional director, can he technically be wrong?:confused:

I umpire USSSA tournaments and I have a 11U USSSA team. Believe me, he would be out around here.

We do use OBR for most rules, but do mix in some FED rules dealing with subs (re-entry) and safety (hurdling players and malicious contact).

If one of my 11 year olds hurdled a catcher in the way described above, I would not argue when he's called out. My kids know either slide or avoid contact.

"I umpire USSSA tournaments and I have a 11U USSSA team. Believe me, he would be out around here."


Is it because umpires in your area are ignorant of USSSA rules or is it because they just feel that calling the kid out is the right thing to do?

Like I said, we use some Fed rules and SAFETY is priority one with the younger kids. Remember, the original poster said 10U.

I don't think that is ignorant.

10U uses the same safety rules in USSSA baseball as 18U.

Here's my point, and it's not just limited to this particular situation: If we, as umpires, start making up rules and pulling rules from different codes, then we are doing a disservice to all umpires that follow the rules. How many times have you heard a coach say, "Well, in our last game, the umpires let us...", or, "In our last game, the umpires called it this way..."

If your local league has special rules about certain situations, then by all means, support those rules. But leave them there in that league and don't apply them elsewhere.

And to the original writer of the question: Sorry to hijack your thread, but this is something that bothers me and I see it everywhere.

[QUOTE=2rad4u]

We do use OBR for most rules, but do mix in some FED rules dealing with subs (re-entry) and safety (hurdling players and malicious contact).

QUOTE]


How does that work? USSSA doesn't specifically states this, so is it a local rule? One your umpire association came up with?

The aforementioned is a BIG problem when doing these type tournaments UNLESS the rules are EXPLICiTLY stated.

Many youth organizations say (and i get a kick out of this) we play by PRO rules, however, most of us no that to be false.

According to the USSSA website, they use OBR. I cannot find a No malicious contact rule ala FEd or even a No Colission rule ala NCAA. It seems as though this is an area by area 'thing"

Most argue that LL, PONY , USSA, Babe Ruth, etc. are OBR based. With the exception of LL, I find that not to be true as evidenced by your thread.

IMO, this is turning out to be an area by area ruling. With the exception of LL, IMO it's safe to say that many of these type youth organizations are now using a Hybrid of rules and their web-sites need to be updated.

Whenever my assignior gets a tournament to schedule, we ask for the "house rules" so to speak. In my experiences I have found that many have adopted the FED DH Rule, FED batting restrictions (meaning -3) and the No malicious Contact rule EVEN though their particular web-sites do not give out this info.

Since your director said the runner would be declared out for hurdling over F2, plain and simple.

Rules which say “the runner must slide or seek to avoid contact”. are vague in nature and subject to many different interpretations. It's my gut that many of these organizations will become closer to FED/NCAA in the future and hopefully their specific Web-sites are updated accordingly.

For example; Legion does use OBR however, they have also adopted a hybrid of rules. American Legion uses the FED FPSR and the FED DH rule (for the jr. program) and uses the NCAA No Colission rule. Tese are "spelled out" on their Web-site, therefore if USSA is adopting some of FED rules, then their web-site should be updated similar to the American Legion Web-site

Bottom Line: get the "house Rules" before you step on the field.

Pete Booth

Well said, Pete.

"Mixed rules" do nothing but confuse everyone. Your situation is paramount to this. In OBR, it is legal to hurdle a fielder where in FED is is illegal. This is why I do not deal with organizations that ba$tardize the rule books.

Well, none of us are confused. It ain't that hard to understand.

Really? Then why not post the USSSA rule reference that shows how to make the call? So far, no one has been able to do this in this thread! We all know the FED says no, the runner cannot hurdle a fielder unless the fielder is prone. We all know that OBR says nothing about it. We all know that LL doesn't allow it either. So pray tell, enlighten us to the USSSA BS rule, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

That's pretty funny.


Hey, I don't make the rules, I enforce the rules our association wants me to. I don't see a problem with making safety a priority. Hurdling a player is un-safe, so, you're out! Besides, in all my years I haven't had to call it, so it's a non-issue with me. I've had my share of malicious contact, but no hurdling.

It might be because they teach the kids properly.

This is why i loathe sub-college leagues that play with modified pro rules.

Use the fed book- it's made for younger players.

LL does allow hurdling.

high scholl NFHS it is illeagal and he is out

USSSA Rules
 

I have been an umpire for many years in N.C. doing USSSA baseball we never go by Fed.rules.We go by the USSSA rules and anything not covered in those rules goes back to the OBR rules. Therefore it is leagle to hurdle the catcher.I have had this happen a few times and always called them safe.We never EVER go by the Fed. book.

:) 2Rad4U, I dont mean to depart from the thread here, but are you under the impression that sliding is 'safer' than hurdling? For whom? The percentage of broken and sprained ankles incurred by young men sliding is many times greater than those injured hurdling. And more severe. Pursue this with the insurance company who handles your high school and /or municipal insurance.

Really? I could have sworn that LL said no hurdling! Oh well, you are the better authority on the LL rules.

I stand corrected.

Regards
Ozzy

I just hate it when folks mix and match, and then complain that the umps don't know THE RULES.

USSSA have augmented their rules
 

...just this year, and only recently added to the website. You can see them at http://http://www.usssabaseball.org/...les.Jan.19.pdf

Look at rule 8.07.G. It references "slide or seek to avoid contact". It also includes the phrase "Malicious contact shall supercede all obstruction penalties."
I don't see hurdling explicitly mentioned, but clearly the inspiration for this aspect of the rules is FED. So call the hurdler out!

Dave R.,

Hmmm,

Interesting train of thought.

If I'm following your logic correctly, if hurling had been explicitly mentioned, you would suggest calling the runner safe. Yes?

Or, alternatively, perhaps you would suggest that the FED "gorilla balk" rule should be strictly enforced for USSSA games?

Anyway, I'm not buyin' it.

Is "hurdling" a fielder kinda "risky"? Sure. Baseball can be a dangerous game. But, it certainly ain't malicious contact. And, under the USSSA ruleset, it's certainly not illegal.

Leave making up rules to coaches.

JM

If hurdling were explicitly mentioned, I would suggest calling safe or out according to the directive of the rule.

Your alternative inference regarding "gorilla balk" isn't appropriate either: the USSSA pitching rules (8.08) are very closely copied from OBR, and do not resemble FED rules.

USSSA rules are a combination of at least two rulesets. We all know that the rules alone aren't sufficient-- that's why we have casebooks and umpire manuals. When an umpire is trying to decide if a particular action by a runner meets the requirement to "seek to avoid contact", he can't use OBR concepts, because "seeking to avoid contact" or "malicious contact" isn't part of those rules. He should invoke FED concepts, because that is the origination of this particular rule. Note that FED does not have a rule against hurdling, but rulebook comments and the casebook describe it as an illegal attempt to avoid unless the fielder is prone.

Neither I nor a coach is making up a rule regarding hurdling; the proper question here is whether the FED casebok ruling and rulebook comments should apply to USSSA games. I submit that this part of the USSSA rules derives from FED rules, and not OBR, and the intrepretations should be consistent with FED.

Dave,


If I were to use this logic would LL 7.08 (a-3) be a rule derived not from OBR, but from FED?


Tim.

Well now I can safely say that combining rulebooks is just a bunch of BS! I have never seen such a mess of rules as this .pdf!

That said, rule 8.07.G is a lawyers dream! Surely, any sane umpire will shy away from doing these games so that they don't loose their home and possessions because the runners must do one or the other!

__________________________________________________ _

8.07.G

Penalty:

Rule 8.07.G Comment:

[/QUOTE]

Apparantly FED did that's why it's illegal to hurdle (unless a player is lying on the ground) in a FED game. If it was not an insurance issue the rule would not exist.

While there can be injuries sliding, one can get seriously injured by hurdling.
Let's take a play at the plate, the kid hurdles, but F2 applies the tag and since the kid is in mid air, he could land on his back, neck area causing serious damage.


Pete Booth

Tim,
Probably this was a rhetorical question, but....
You'll notice that 7.08 (a-1) and (a-2) are exactly the same in OBR and in LL. Rules a-3 and a-4 (headfirst slide) are additions made by LL which don't match FED rules in language or intent. If you need an interpretation of the LL rulebook, you should use "The Right Call" and the RIM. If those publications don't address the issue, then my advice is to resort to OBR interpretations.

And in case the question wasn't rhetorical, let me add that the LL rules are most assuredly based on OBR, with a whole raft of changes mostly driven by the age and ability of the participants. Most of the changes do not resemble FED (or any other set of) rules, e.g. no leading off, red flags, the "poof rule", MPR. We can quite properly categorize them as Little League rules.

LL rule doesn't refer to "avoid contact"
 

The LL rule says the runner must slide or "attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make the tag."

The leaping runner is out in LL.

Once again - hurdling is legal in LL.

Reference:= LL Rules Instruction Manual instructor comments regarding 7.08(a)(3)

"Hurdling or going over the defensive player that has the ball and is waiting to make a tag is a legal maneuver. Rule 7.08(a) (3) does not prevent or make illegal hurdling."

There's nothing contained in the rule you quoted that would be considered "a lawyer's dream" if you're suggesting the rule is poorly worded so as to invite a liability lawsuit should someone get injured in a play. You highlighted the word "must," but you obviously missed the word "or" a couple of words after that.

You quoted the correct rule but then said Leaping in LL is illegal.

There are no sliding restrictions in LL which is amazing considering how safety concious they seem to be.

In fact in LL you can "take out a fielder" and nothing happens accept maybe ejection.

Very rarely where you have a situation where both conditions in LL's joke of a safety rule exist meaning Player having ACTUAL possession of the ball AND waiting to make a tag.

That's why for the most part there is confusion in youth leagues regarding plays at the plate where contact is made as evidenced by this thread.

Kuddos to the USSSA director for referring to the FED rule.

All youth leagues should have a no Malicious contact rule and also sliding restrictions and my gut is that in the future they will.

Pete Booth

Actually, Little League is alone amongst all baseball organizations (that I'm aware of) in prohibiting head-first slides (while advancing.)

I agree with you that LL's failure to prohibit hurdling (I would allow the FED exception that you can hurdle a prone player) is a safety oversight.