Throw pulls 1st baseman off bag

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

The part about asking before making a call I get, but I'm not clear on why it might be occasionally OK to reverse a Safe call, but not an Out call.

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

[UmpJM]

Craig,

Thanks. Your restatement of what Tim said in the first sentence of his post on the subject was the nudge I needed to get the point.

Sometimes I'm dense.

JM

[Justme]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

Maybe sometimes you might call someone out because you didn't see something that made him safe....it happens!

I think one thing is for sure, and that is that the whole "getting the call right" concept and procedures are going to become prevelent at all levels of baseball.

How far will it go, and what other scenarios might be added into the "get some help" catagory? That remains to be seen. But, I don't see this going away.

Also, based on my experience with it, I don't see it as a bad thing. Indeed, some coaches may try to get this on every call in the field, but we have ways to deal with appeals that make a mockery of the game, and I imagine those will start to apply to the coach who asks us to go for help on every call! We may deal with that like we would them arguing balls and strikes, or how we deal with constant appeals at every base even when there was no question as to the outcome.

I think once coaches are familiar with when they can ask an umpire to ask for hlep, 99.9% of the time, they will only ask when it is appropriate. It is a concept that everybody will need to get their heads around and used to doing. But after a few years of using it, I think things will settle down and it will be a good addition to calling the game.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by rei

I think once coaches are familiar with when they can ask an umpire to ask for hlep, 99.9% of the time, they will only ask when it is appropriate. It is a concept that everybody will need to get their heads around and used to doing. But after a few years of using it, I think things will settle down and it will be a good addition to calling the game.

I think you give coaches way too much credit, and place too much value on their opinions.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I think you give coaches way too much credit, and place too much value on their opinions.

One of the reasons that I am doing high levels of baseball is because I am fair, impartial, and work hard at doing the right thing. Coaches opinions do have value, and coaches deserve credit where credit is due.

Since you do not do any college level baseball and never have, you have no experience with how this plays out on the college baseball field, thus, no reference to base an opinion on.

Those are facts!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by rei

One of the reasons that I am doing high levels of baseball is because I am fair, impartial, and work hard at doing the right thing. Coaches opinions do have value, and coaches deserve credit where credit is due.

Since you do not do any college level baseball and never have, you have no experience with how this plays out on the college baseball field, thus, no reference to base an opinion on.

Those are facts!

I have worked plenty of summer collegiate ball, wood-bat leagues with college players, adult leagues with college and former professional players, and top level Varsity HS games since 1987. I have plenty of reference on which to base my opinions. Let me know when you have nearly the experience I have.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Be vewy, vewy careful.

Rei has experience far above D1 and has been umpiring just a little longer than you.

You might try to listen for once.

Regards,

rei has what level experience? You seem to know a lot about him. Where can I see him work?

[UmpJM]

rei,

I would just like to offer the following observations.

Though you have only recently begun posting to this forum, the impression I have formed in my mind (based solely on the content of your posts) is that you tend to know what you are talking about, and, from my perspective, are someone who contributes to the value this resource offers.

In my experience on this board, pursuing the line of "discussion" you are following in the post immediately above will contribute "less than zero" to the value of this forum. So I have chosen not to engage in such discussions.

As in all things, do as you think best.

JM

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And that just might be the most ignorant statement that I've read on this forum yet.Why don't you just come out and say to everybody "I'm a big-time umpire and you're not"? What next? Gonna write your resume at the bottom of every post that you make too?

I see that having smug, know-it-all, overbearing azzholes delivering sermons from the Mount is fairly common in all sports.

I am sorry you feel that way. I am about 100% sure if we met in person, and talked about the same subjects, you would not feel this way, unless you were extremely insecure about where you are at as an umpire.

The brevity required to get an idea across on a BBS such as this means that sometimes you have to assume the best about a person.

[UmpJM]

QED

That didn't take long.

JM

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I can see that he's already a legend in his own mind too.

Can you please point to some kind of fact that would say that this is how I think?

[mcrowder]

First off, the implication that MiLB is better than NCAA or vice versa is just flat stupid. They are simply different.

Second off... REI - you've just gotten a ringing endorsement from the court jester. Congrats. So far in your short life, you've come across as nothing but condescending to the general populus here.

I'll take you at your word (Tee's backup helps there!) that you actually have the experience you claim to have, but some of the comments you have made give the majority of us reason to doubt your ability to work with anyone. (Re: comments in one thread that you tell "lesser umpires" how to judge a check swing at your pregame conference... comments in another ribbing a so-called-junior umpire for doing HIS job at a time when his job necessarily had to include preventing you from playing hopscotch with a coach that you found particularly cute (verbally cute that is), wasting everyone else's time, etc.)

Take a deep breath and realize that 90% of the posters here are here to learn from our betters and educate the newbies - and that most of us are in the middle of that spectrum. And also remember that an umpire can be good and still work at a "lower" level than you, and that different things are expected at different levels... NCAA is NOT the default setting.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

I will start by saying that I agree with Tim's last statement toward me and do not wish to turn this into a measuring contest. My intent is only to engage in civil discussion.

I understand that we don't want to have "phantom out" calls, but as many here have stated, when the call is your responsibility; then you are charged with making a call. I for one have been on the field when bad baseball has taken place and due to last second acrobatics, my angle was lost and I got the best look that I could. I am not opposed to getting help before making the call, but I think if you use that a lot then it opens you up more than getting help when asked.

Let's say that I was in a great position to see the pulled foot, but it turned into a bad one for the swipe tag, or run downs those are always fun.

You make the best call that you can and you sell the hell out of it. Which ever way might be best to sell the call based on situation and such.

Tim, I can honsetly say that there have been a few times where I would have gotten help on an out call if the coach would have been smart enough to come out and ask me to get help, but as we know they are not always that smart.

My 1st year on Pro ball I had 27 ejections in the Penn League, then in spring before my second year they instructed MiLB umpires as a group that they wanted a kinder gentler umpire. In my 2nd year I had 4 ejections with time in the Sally, FSL, & Southern.

I got out and the NCAA said they wanted kinder gentler umpires too.

If a head coach comes out and asks me to get help and I feel that it was a situation that warranted it I would most certainly ask.

I would bring the entire crew together ask what ever question was appropriate and make a decission. Another thread asked about how do you change a call.

If I were the crew chief I would walk over to the dugout of the team that the change would go against and inform the head coach of the change and tell him that my partners gave me information that I didn't have and I CHANGED MY CALL. I would also not allow him to approach my partners and warn him if need be and eject him if I had too, but I would not allow him to go after my partners.

If I weren't the crew chief I would do everything the same, but I would walk over there with the crew chief.

By walking over to the head coach and informing him in this manner, I feel that you are much more likely to prevent an ejection. You will not always avoid it, but by explaining the situation versus reacting to his charging out on the field there will be less trouble when you change the call.

Tim, I would also not go get help if the coach came out in an unreasonable manner. Only if he was under control and asked in a calm manner.

Thoughts?