Throw pulls 1st baseman off bag

[UmpJM]

Gentlemen,

Being kind of new to this, I thought I'd share an experience I had while umpiring a High School age Fall Ball game last year.

I was BU in A and the batter hit a "routine grounder" to the left side of the infield. The F5 cleanly fielded it and threw to 1st. I had moved into fair territory at a roughly 45 degree angle to the 1B line. As the throw left F5's hand it quickly became apparent that it was not a "quality" throw. I focused on the base and listened for the catch. Sure enough, the F3's foot came off the bag as he reached for the throw and it was clear to me that he was off the bag before he caught the throw, which was 2-3 steps ahead of the BR.

As the BR crossed the bag, I made an emphatic "SAFE!" call, & followed with a two-hand sweeping motion while verbalizing "Off the bag".

All of a sudden, there's some lamentation from the defense, and my partner, who is roughly 1/2 way up the 1B line discretely signals me that he's got something I may not have seen.

I then called Time and my partner and I had a private conversation with my partner, during which my partner informed me that he had clearly seen the F3 make a "good" swipe tag of the BR before he had reached 1B.

I then announced that the BR was "Out, on the tag!". There was no objection from the offense when I reversed my call, and the game proceeded to completion without further incident, despite some bangers on the bases.

From my perspective, I FUBAR'd that call at 1B. I could make the lame excuse that I was screened from seeing the tag by F3's body (which I was), but that was just because I didn't know enough to make the minor adjustment necessary to get a clear view. Even more mortifying to me, is that I didn't even know that the F3 had attempted a swipe tag, let alone whether or not the tag was good. I had not employed "proper use of the eyes", because once I saw the F3's foot come off the bag, I had neglected to closely observe what he did once he caught the ball.

When I attended the Desert Classic the following month, I was instructed on both of these points and, hopefully, I will avoid making these particualr mistakes in the future. I'm sure there will be others. While attending class, I related this situation to one of the instructors over adult beverages one evening. While he was too polite to call me an incompetent boob, his distaste for the fact that I had reversed my original call was evident.

At the time, I was glad that my partner let me know he had seen something and felt it was "the right thing to do" to reverse my call. Now I'm not so sure. The MiLB umpire/instructor seemed to suggest that, even after receiving the additional info., I should have just "eaten" the call.

I would also appreciate some clarification on the rationale behind Tim C.'s statement that:

If the BU asks before the call OR the call is safe a PU can give help (if asked). If the call is "OUT!" then there is no help to be given.

The part about asking before making a call I get, but I'm not clear on why it might be occasionally OK to reverse a Safe call, but not an Out call.

Not being argumentative, just trying to understand.

Thanks.

JM

Great story JM. Thanks for sharing that.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Gentlemen,

Being kind of new to this, I thought I'd share an experience I had while umpiring a High School age Fall Ball game last year.

I was BU in A and the batter hit a "routine grounder" to the left side of the infield. The F5 cleanly fielded it and threw to 1st. I had moved into fair territory at a roughly 45 degree angle to the 1B line. As the throw left F5's hand it quickly became apparent that it was not a "quality" throw. I focused on the base and listened for the catch. Sure enough, the F3's foot came off the bag as he reached for the throw and it was clear to me that he was off the bag before he caught the throw, which was 2-3 steps ahead of the BR.

As the BR crossed the bag, I made an emphatic "SAFE!" call, & followed with a two-hand sweeping motion while verbalizing "Off the bag".

All of a sudden, there's some lamentation from the defense, and my partner, who is roughly 1/2 way up the 1B line discretely signals me that he's got something I may not have seen.

I then called Time and my partner and I had a private conversation with my partner, during which my partner informed me that he had clearly seen the F3 make a "good" swipe tag of the BR before he had reached 1B.

I then announced that the BR was "Out, on the tag!". There was no objection from the offense when I reversed my call, and the game proceeded to completion without further incident, despite some bangers on the bases.

From my perspective, I FUBAR'd that call at 1B. I could make the lame excuse that I was screened from seeing the tag by F3's body (which I was), but that was just because I didn't know enough to make the minor adjustment necessary to get a clear view. Even more mortifying to me, is that I didn't even know that the F3 had attempted a swipe tag, let alone whether or not the tag was good. I had not employed "proper use of the eyes", because once I saw the F3's foot come off the bag, I had neglected to closely observe what he did once he caught the ball.

When I attended the Desert Classic the following month, I was instructed on both of these points and, hopefully, I will avoid making these particualr mistakes in the future. I'm sure there will be others. While attending class, I related this situation to one of the instructors over adult beverages one evening. While he was too polite to call me an incompetent boob, his distaste for the fact that I had reversed my original call was evident.

At the time, I was glad that my partner let me know he had seen something and felt it was "the right thing to do" to reverse my call. Now I'm not so sure. The MiLB umpire/instructor seemed to suggest that, even after receiving the additional info., I should have just "eaten" the call.

I would also appreciate some clarification on the rationale behind Tim C.'s statement that:



The part about asking before making a call I get, but I'm not clear on why it might be occasionally OK to reverse a Safe call, but not an Out call.

Not being argumentative, just trying to understand.

Thanks.

JM

The mind set of sticking with your call no matter what is coming to an end, even in MiLB & MLB level. If you watch pro-ball then I'm sure you've begun to see the umpires conferencing more. The idea is to get the call right. Of course there are times when you can't change the call because it will cause more problems then it corrects but when you can get the call right I believe that you should. Remember, the good of the game clearly outweights the ego of the umpire (or at least it should).

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

The part about asking before making a call I get, but I'm not clear on why it might be occasionally OK to reverse a Safe call, but not an Out call.

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

[UmpJM]

Craig,

Thanks. Your restatement of what Tim said in the first sentence of his post on the subject was the nudge I needed to get the point.

Sometimes I'm dense.

JM

[Justme]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

Maybe sometimes you might call someone out because you didn't see something that made him safe....it happens!

I think one thing is for sure, and that is that the whole "getting the call right" concept and procedures are going to become prevelent at all levels of baseball.

How far will it go, and what other scenarios might be added into the "get some help" catagory? That remains to be seen. But, I don't see this going away.

Also, based on my experience with it, I don't see it as a bad thing. Indeed, some coaches may try to get this on every call in the field, but we have ways to deal with appeals that make a mockery of the game, and I imagine those will start to apply to the coach who asks us to go for help on every call! We may deal with that like we would them arguing balls and strikes, or how we deal with constant appeals at every base even when there was no question as to the outcome.

I think once coaches are familiar with when they can ask an umpire to ask for hlep, 99.9% of the time, they will only ask when it is appropriate. It is a concept that everybody will need to get their heads around and used to doing. But after a few years of using it, I think things will settle down and it will be a good addition to calling the game.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by rei

I think once coaches are familiar with when they can ask an umpire to ask for hlep, 99.9% of the time, they will only ask when it is appropriate. It is a concept that everybody will need to get their heads around and used to doing. But after a few years of using it, I think things will settle down and it will be a good addition to calling the game.

I think you give coaches way too much credit, and place too much value on their opinions.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I think you give coaches way too much credit, and place too much value on their opinions.

One of the reasons that I am doing high levels of baseball is because I am fair, impartial, and work hard at doing the right thing. Coaches opinions do have value, and coaches deserve credit where credit is due.

Since you do not do any college level baseball and never have, you have no experience with how this plays out on the college baseball field, thus, no reference to base an opinion on.

Those are facts!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by rei

One of the reasons that I am doing high levels of baseball is because I am fair, impartial, and work hard at doing the right thing. Coaches opinions do have value, and coaches deserve credit where credit is due.

Since you do not do any college level baseball and never have, you have no experience with how this plays out on the college baseball field, thus, no reference to base an opinion on.

Those are facts!

I have worked plenty of summer collegiate ball, wood-bat leagues with college players, adult leagues with college and former professional players, and top level Varsity HS games since 1987. I have plenty of reference on which to base my opinions. Let me know when you have nearly the experience I have.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Coach JM,

I believe the rationale is based on the statement Tim made earlier: no phantom outs. You call someone out because you saw something that made him out.

I will start by saying that I agree with Tim's last statement toward me and do not wish to turn this into a measuring contest. My intent is only to engage in civil discussion.

I understand that we don't want to have "phantom out" calls, but as many here have stated, when the call is your responsibility; then you are charged with making a call. I for one have been on the field when bad baseball has taken place and due to last second acrobatics, my angle was lost and I got the best look that I could. I am not opposed to getting help before making the call, but I think if you use that a lot then it opens you up more than getting help when asked.

Let's say that I was in a great position to see the pulled foot, but it turned into a bad one for the swipe tag, or run downs those are always fun.

You make the best call that you can and you sell the hell out of it. Which ever way might be best to sell the call based on situation and such.

Tim, I can honsetly say that there have been a few times where I would have gotten help on an out call if the coach would have been smart enough to come out and ask me to get help, but as we know they are not always that smart.

My 1st year on Pro ball I had 27 ejections in the Penn League, then in spring before my second year they instructed MiLB umpires as a group that they wanted a kinder gentler umpire. In my 2nd year I had 4 ejections with time in the Sally, FSL, & Southern.

I got out and the NCAA said they wanted kinder gentler umpires too.

If a head coach comes out and asks me to get help and I feel that it was a situation that warranted it I would most certainly ask.

I would bring the entire crew together ask what ever question was appropriate and make a decission. Another thread asked about how do you change a call.

If I were the crew chief I would walk over to the dugout of the team that the change would go against and inform the head coach of the change and tell him that my partners gave me information that I didn't have and I CHANGED MY CALL. I would also not allow him to approach my partners and warn him if need be and eject him if I had too, but I would not allow him to go after my partners.

If I weren't the crew chief I would do everything the same, but I would walk over there with the crew chief.

By walking over to the head coach and informing him in this manner, I feel that you are much more likely to prevent an ejection. You will not always avoid it, but by explaining the situation versus reacting to his charging out on the field there will be less trouble when you change the call.

Tim, I would also not go get help if the coach came out in an unreasonable manner. Only if he was under control and asked in a calm manner.

Thoughts?

[Rcichon]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Gentlemen,

Being kind of new to this, I thought I'd share an experience .......................

JM

Sounds like you got the call right. If you're BU, you were focusing on the right spot: You have to get the timing of the catch/foot plant at 1. That said, you should EXPECT that your partner will not be watching the same spot. HE should be (and was according to your post) watching for exactly what he saw, a swipe tag or OBS/INT/Foul, etc.

It is possible that you were too close to the play to see the entire motion.

All that FUBAR/boob stuff is blather. You and your partner got the call right. If this guy was sore with you over that, maybe you should choose a different partner next time.

Next.

[LMan]

I think the key is to ask for help (if you are going to do it) before your call....that ensures one call is made. If you are BU in JM's play and you even think there may be extenuating circumstances (I understand that in this particular case you must have been so tunnelvisioned on the foot that you missed the swipe tag entirely), you have to ask the PU before you rule.

That 'gets it right' and leaves no impression that your call was 'changed'.