Partners "stepping in" to your discussion...
 

Ever have it happen? Working with a guy, and say you call a runner's interference on the bases, and as the Head Coach of the offending team comes out to find out what it is all about, your partner cuts him off and explains your call for you?

What would you do/say afterwards if the person is senior to you?

What about your partner "stepping in" during a perfectly good argument with a coach who you know very well, and you know is doing a little show to fire up the troops and let off a little steam, and your partner says "Come on guys, let's go"?

I gotta admit, I have seen an alarming number of instances where the first is happening, or even worse, where umpires are "ganging up" on Head Coaches. You see it a few different times in one of the NCAA presentations this year.

Personally, I stay out of people's discussion until my partner peels away after ejecting somebody. There is no point before then where I will interject into the discussion. It is not my discussion. I expect that same protocol from my partners but haven't felt the need to cover it in a pre-game for a long time.

It just got added to the pre-game list. :(

Same with the partner trying to cut in mid-way through an argument. While I know they have good intentions, it actually makes things worse for them, because not only is the coach pissed at them, but so am I! :)

Very interested in hearing your take on it. Maybe we can get some good discussion on this before it becomes a pee-off between a few people eh? ;)

I don't explain my partner's calls, and I don't butt in unless I need to.

The only time I've done this was when I was working with a rookie, junior umpire. The manager wanted time to argue a bang-bang play at second. I told him unless he had a dropped ball, pulled foot, or missed tag, don't even bother.

Other than a guy trying to intimidate a rookie, I'll stay waaay out of it.

I had never been so mad on a field than the day my partner got between me and a coach before I had tossed him. It's my business as long as the coach is still in the game.

I might get closer to the argument, but that's only so I don't have as far to go after the ejection. The only time I get involved if there's a 2-on-1 -- then I'm picking the other person off so my partner has the head coach 1-on-1.

Just what Rich said.

I don't like butt-inskies either. It's my argument, and the day I can't handle a single manager without assistance is the day I would quit.

I know most people don't like it, but what would you do about it if your partner was senior to you in your organization? That is the $16 question.

Let's pile it on. What if this partner is doing the level of ball you aspire to, and knows almost everybody that can help you get there?

What are you going to say when they cut in on your discussion?

After the game:

"Bob, I know you were trying to help me out out there, and I appreciate that. I rely on umpires like you to mentor me, but I think you need to see how I manage situations on my own so you can better judge how much advice and instruction I still need. Does that make sense?"

I don't care if God himself comes down and gets in the middle of my argument, I will just tell Him to get back to Heaven where he belongs, because this is my business here.

The same thing goes for the guy who works the upper level ball to which I aspire. I've worked with these guys before, and they have never tried to do this, ever. It has always been a "sink or swim" mentality on these kind of situations. But if one of them had tried to step on my toes, they would have heard about it from me after the game. To do any less would be like kissing up to them, which I've never been about.

Discuss this before the game. Then you know what the expectations are during a blow up. I have no problem with my partner being in the area if a discussion is going on too long or they are there to get other participants out of the discussion. I do not think there is a one-size fits all point of view. But I would discuss this because you will have a debate on some level.

Peace

Let's say it was covered before that game!

Sorry SanDiegoSteve, I just cannot buy into such a hard core stance on this. There are times when you can screw your future up by not dealing with a situation with a partner well.

I work with a lot of great guys! But here and there, I work with somebody who has had their head up their fanny for so long that they forgot that their poop stinks too! ;)

You cover it so you know where your partner stands. You do not have to go over every possible situation. You just have to go over attitudes about how you want to handle basic discussions. There are always exceptions, but if you want to keep yourself out of being completely surprised, cover "How we want to handle arguments during this game." Then when the $h!t hits the fan, you can do what is discussed or choose to ignore it.

Peace

I will likely not be in this situation. We work with regular partners (I have 25 HS and college dates with one guy and 10 dates with another guy -- both close friends) and I don't aspire to be more than a better official at my current level.

But I do know where you're coming from, as I've moved about 5 times before settling in here in my current, snow-covered location. And I've had partners act like I've never umpired before even though I could tell in minutes that I'd be carrying them in rough moments even though they were the ones politically connected.

All you can do is let your umpiring speak for itself and not make life difficult for yourself while you're climbing the ladder. If a partner got in the middle during an argument at a level I didn't work often or was working towards, I'd likely let it go and figure out why he did it after the game.

I'll be honest, I know I did it myself once or twice last season -- I jumped in when an inexperienced partner was clearly overmatched. But I'm the assignor/UIC of the league, so I wasn't (at the time) interested in watching my partner suffer -- I needed the umpire to stay in the league and fill slots and learn without getting thrown to the wolves. I don't believe you necessarily learn how to swim best by getting thrown into a tank full of piranhas, either.

Then let me rephrase it. I've never needed anyone to step in for me when dealing with coaches during arguments, so that situation has never reared its ugly head. After ejections or when ganged up on, yes, I certainly welcome help in getting rid of the offending or extra participant(s). That is the partner's job.

Like I said, nobody has ever tried to step in between a coach and me during a one-on-one confrontation. The people I have worked with know better than to do that. My partners have fortunately been one of 3 things: 1) Too young and/or inexperienced to be that bold, (2) equals who would not want it done to them, so they know better or (3) are my senior, and as old school umpires, would just let me sink or swim on my own anyway.

rei:

All of could say "Never happened, won't happen" but most of us assumed you wanted a "what if" answer and cooperated.

As you may have observed, Stevie either doesn't understand the purpose of a hypothetical question or is choosing not to answer it.

No Garth, I already answered the question in a prior post. Regardless of the "Statoos" of the umpire who cut in, I would have a talk after the game with the individual, as it is not proper to step on a veteran umpire in such a situation. Hell, even when I was a rook I knew how to handle my business, as I was taught by pro school grads from Day One.

And you don't have permission to refer to me as Stevie, so knock it the F off.

I appreciate your comments, and support.

I too have cut in on a inexperienced partner when a bully was on him, for the good of the game you know! ;)

I think that there are times when you are dealing with somebody who probably will not go to the next level, but has the ear of a lot of people who are at that level. Like it or not, you have to go through some people who are not exactly the most effacing umpires who look for opportunities to be officious. :( I suppose that says a lot about why they didn't achieve that next level.

I can think of some D1 non-conference umpires who are technically a lot better than some conference umpires, but lack the same easy going way about them, and don't seem to show a lot of care to the guys that are trying to move up.

Personally, I really like working with and helping guys on the way up. They constantly remind me that I have to look for ways to improve every game! Some of my favorite people to work with who have achieved a level higher than I am doing are more than willing to let me make my own mistakes, as it should be! They wait to give feedback about what I did wrong for when I ask for it. Sometimes, they give me things I have never thought of.

It is guys that are doing the higher level who are officious that bug me the most. Gawd help me if I ever become officious!

I just posted all of this because not only have I experienced some D1 guys who "cut in" on stuff that they should stay out of, but have seen a lot of footage where it has happened. It is like these guys are looking to get into the middle of the conflict! A college coach actually stated displeasure about another umpire, BY NAME to me, who was calling a lot of attention to himself in various ways. It was interesting to hear about, and frankly, I agreed with him, but of course got out of that conversation as gracefully and quickly as I could! ("Hey coach, is that hot dog stand over there open? I sure am hungry! :) ).

Maybe "red a$$" is getting a little carried away at the D1 level?

Do most threads here turn into in-fighting by the second page usually?

Only when Larry, Shep and Moe are on-line.......

Soooooooo..........ever seen a rising gyroball?

He won't. As far as I know, Doug Harvey is still retired. :D

Only in certain circumstances, to wit:

a. When the subject involves umpiring;
b. When the subject involves something other than umpiring.

"UNDER" is usually a safe bet.

Good to know! ;)

I'll keep that in mind next time! :)

No, but my mojo rises watching Jennie Finch gyro her hips! :)

The aforementioned is a Life question as well. In other words are you willing to "swallow your pride" for the sake of advancement.

Also, is umpiring your profession as opposed to a hobby. This might sound "off base" (no pun inteneded) but umpiring should be fun. One gets enough stress at work and if your working with "top dogs" who make you feel uncomfortable then it's up to the individual to determine if you are going to "take it" or say something.

Advancing through the umpiring ranks in a way is no different than advancing in the sport itself. Managers often leave some young pitcher's in the game simply to see how much guts they have or whether or not they can work their way through it. They want to find this out before the playoffs begin etc. if every-time a young pitcher got in trouble he was replaced, it would make that pitcher's life more difficult to succeed because he was never given the chance.

Same is true when umpiring. You need to learn how to handle cerrtain situations and you will not find the answers in some book. You will learn through experiences and if someone is constantly "stepping in" for you he is doing you an injustice because you will not learn that way.

I fully understand a veteran umpire "stepping in" if he has given you a chance to talk to the coach but now the conversation is dragging, getting very heated and going no-where. It's now time to step in and get the game moving.

There is a reason for a POST game evaluation and the reason is to critique your performance so that you as an umpire can improve. Sometimes "Top Dogs" do not want to critique etc. because they are afraid (especially if the umpire they are critiquing is talented) they will be replaced as top dog.

The answer lies in ones goals and if you truly want to get to "that level" then you do whatever it takes.

Pete Booth

I had a long discussion with another umpire who is at that next level today about this scenario. He had an interesting take on it. He said "Hey, if the guy is crazy enough to step into your discussion, let him have it. Peel away and go to your position".

There was a little more to it than that, but that was the essense of the talk. Pete, he also more or less affirmed what you were saying about how you just have to sort of "take it" sometimes.

Personally, I don't think at the college level that anybody "needs" protection from a partner. If an umpire has made it to that level, they have usually shown the ability to handle coaches fairly well eh? :)

No. Since I am UIC for my assoc., I advise Junior Umpires that are being observed during games or that are doing games with me of incorrect calls or interp's. Even then, it is away from others no one else can hear or read what's happening and I always advise the Junior that it is HIS call start to finish no matter which way it goes.

I have never been set upon by another more Senior Umpire during a game. If I had, I would probably consider what he's saying at least for reference. If he tried to change my call, I would advise him to back away and I would change the call if the sitch warranted it.

Then i would tell the scheduler to never put me with that AW again.

That being said, I've only been at this Officiating thing for 12 years.:D

Pregame
 

I agree totally. Just as important to all of the other pregame, I always make it a point to cover problems.

If we have a problem with a coach ...

But bottom line is that "he made the call" go with it.

Now if my partner wants to discuss something with me that's different.

However, as someone said, never allow a double team. If my partner is discussing, then I'm managing the rest of the field.

thanks
David

Well, I have been on the field many times where the coaches might of needed protection from my partner. :)

In all seriousness, I can only remeber two times where I stepped in a cut off a partner. Both were last year, one was DI the other was JC. So read and then let me have it.

The first one happened after a partner was MFing Pat Casey and ejected him. He kept MFing him and at one point when I was trying to get between them, I told my partner to go to the Fing outfield. I even called Pat's 1st base coach over to grab Pat and get him out of there.

The 2nd happened as my partner called a double play to end the inning that he got right. The dugout popped off and he started dropping the F-Bomb on them from the middle of the diamond as he was running towards the dugout. It was a JC game and my partner had just finished his 1st year of Pro ball. The way he was handling the situation wasn't going to help him accomplish anything, so I stepped in and defelected the heat. There was an ejection, but my actions helped him calm down and the situation was handled well after my short comment to the dugout.
After the game he thanked me for helping him from making a bad situation worse. We talked about how to handle those situations and he used some of it in his second year of pro ball and got promoted.

What do you do when you see a partner headed down the wrong road?

Pretty good bet that neither of them used any Verbal Judo! ;)

Nope it was more like Verbal MFing Kung Fu!

You have to protect your partner(s). Sometimes from themselves.

Sure, you need to protect your partner, but if he's doing fine without you, then don't interrupt him. If he is out of control, as in Durham's examples, then you need to step in and regain control of the situation. By the same token, if you have a very inexperienced partner, and he is just getting pummeled by the coach, and he clearly can't handle the situation, then it's a good thing to move in and take his place, and have him take a walk.

I remember a game a couple of years ago where a coach who I know quite well came out on me because I called his stealing runner out at second. He is one of those coaches that never gets thrown out because he never says anything to get himself thrown out. When he yells, it is usually just so everybody knows he is out "protecting his player". Never any disparaging comments, personal insults, questioning your actual judgment, or any crap like that. He just argues stuff like "are you sure you had the right angle to see that?", or "is that really the rule?". It is almost comical. I usually give him a little time to say his peace and I know I will not hear from him for the rest of the game.

Anyway, in said game, he is out there asking all the usuals, and my fairly new partner (about 4 years umpiring) comes out and says "Come on guys, lets go". The coach turns and looks at him, turns towards me with that look of like "Who is this guy?", turns back to my partner and asks "Who the heck are you? I was discussing this with your partner!", turns back to me and says "Thanks for listening", and heads off to his dugout. :) From this point on, the assistant from that team started taking little sniper shots about balls and strikes from the dugout on my partner, of which, he didn't deal with at all! LOL

I am not sure if he really learned any kind of lesson there because the post game didn't go so well for various other reasons. He didn't get any Varsity assignments after the pre-season.

You should if you can but sometimes they just can't be helped. Recent war stories:

Adult League game a season or two ago. My partner, a pretty good varsity HS ump, on the plate. Struggling with the pitches being thrown by the big boys, his zone was all over the place. One of the coaches complained that he never called the same position twice in a row. After my partner exchanged a few words (from the plate) with the coach in the dugout he set to watch the next pitch. Clearly up (way up). "STRIKE, how'd you like that one coach?" He yelled out. He called a couple of other bad pitches strikes too, with comments. Not much you can do there......

Last season, HS varsity playoff game. I'm the 3B ump. My PU kicks a call at home, we all saw it but he wouldn't go for help. Coach was all over him. They spent several minutes yelling at each other. I looked up at the sky, no clouds...no rain. I looked at the lights around the field, no ending this game due to darkness. I remembered that there was no time limit on the game. I looked at one of the asst. coaches and waived him toward where his head coach & my PU were still screaming at each other, the direction I was now walking too. It was like we read each others minds. He grabbed his guy and I got my guy. A few moments later we were back playing ball. Right or wrong I did it.

Managers that snipe like this get the 'cold shoulder' on the outside but also burn up what little 'jurisdictional license' they have with me.

Not to mention fuse length! To me, small bullsh*t remarks concerning Strikes/Balls that are repeated is Prolonged.

I agree! I don't allow it to continue when I am on the plate, ESPECIALLY from an assistant coach! If it is totally out of hand and I am on the bases and my partner doesn't take care of it, I will most likely step in.

But on this day, with this partner, I figured since he wanted to butt into our discussion earlier, he must be willing to take some crap he shouldn't, and I let it go. ;) During the pre-game, when I tried to cover some stuff with him, he kept saying stuff like "I already know that, let's move on", and "I know what I am doing", etc... :(

Again, he isn't doing any varsity ball, even now. He seemed to have a little problem with constructive criticism from senior partners, and that is holding him back. Well, and maybe his freshman strike zone too! :)

With a partner who just outright doesn't know what is going on, or who obviously can't handle a tough situation, but at least has a shred of humility, I would never think of hanging them out to dry. But when a guy gives every indication that he isn't interested in what I have to say, I am not going to step in until the situation has the potential of becoming violent between my partner and a coach.

I had a different take on what your P did when you originally posted it. And in fact still do.
Your P in this game was the PU and is charged with moving the game along. He's listening to this coach arguing or talking or discussing or whatever it is he does, about nothing, a bunch of fluff based on how you described it. Your P simply came out and said "lets go" lets play ball. If you and this coach want to dance, do it on your own time. I'd say this young PU had a pretty good read on this coach from the get go and did his job.
BTW, if a coach turns to me in that situation and says "who the heck are you" it would probably be his last question of the day, most certainly the last one outside the dugout.

This is kind of funny, actually.

On one hand, "I advise junior partners ... doing games with me of incorrect calls."
On the other, if it turns out you're the junior partner, "I would tell the scheduler never to put me with that AW again."

Ever have any of your "junior partners" quit on you? Wouldn't shock me.

It's one thing to correct a missed interp. It's one thing to tell a junior guy AFTER the game that he may have missed one, and how to be in better position the next time. It's completely another to "inform partners of a wrong call" (Wrong in YOUR opinion... at a time when you probably had other responsibilities or at the very least the OTHER umpire (Jr he may be) had a better angle (and after all, with proper mechanics, the umpire with the better shot at getting the right call is almost always the one making that call). How arrogant to assume that your call (from most likely further away or a worse angle) is more correct than his call. Years be damned, that's quite a leap there, cowboy.

You seem to think this was funny. I'd work with your partner anyday. This is the second time you've come on here with a story you thought was funny where it sounds (even from YOUR words) like you were the problem. What are you doing playing pattycake with this guy for? Kudos to the new guy for not letting you waste everyone else's time. And no kudos to you for not tossing the jerk for disparaging your partner to your face. Nice sticking up for the partner there.

Based on the pregame advice you were bragging about in the other thread, I don't blame the kid. Good job chasing off a potential umpire.

Actually, the coach has every right to come out and ask questions about that call. I have no problem with coaches that I know do not step over the line doing a little yelling and screaming provided that they don't repeat questions, and don't question my judgment.

My job isn't to jack a guy just because he is carrying on a bit. I have been around the argument block more than my fair share of times, and have enough years working with coaches in this area to know who some of the good guys and bad guys are. I don't play "pattycake" with anybody. But it is my call to decide when the discussion is over, not my partners! In this particular case, the argument was not very long, and it was constructive, and he had no business cutting in.

As much as it is up to me to decide when a coach is done "discussing" a call with me, it is also up to my partner to decide when he wants to run a guy. You can't have it both ways! Either you can say it is okay for your partner to cut in on something, or it isn't. If my partner heard what was said to him and didn't throw the coach, I sure as heck ain't gonna do it for him!

It is easy to have hard and fast rules about umpiring, but the longer I do this, the more I respect that each situation has it's own unique dynamic to it. I used to be a quick to eject umpire, and it only stressed me out being that way. What has worked far better for me is to work towards keeping people in the game, even if that means it appears I didn't get the "upper hand" in the situation. There are times when letting a coach rant a bit works out very well, and the better you know the coaches you are working with, the better you are at determining when enough is enough. It is just not the same in every situation!

I worked with an ex AAA umpire last year in a game that started to get pretty heated from one side. Lots of little things going on. Comments from the dugout, catcher getting a bit mouthy, hitters making comments. Finally, a guy got thrown. The manager came out, and a HUGE prolonged argument ensued. I was standing 20 or so feet away and could not hear a word being said because the crowd was so loud telling him to eject the manager. He didn't, and not another incident with that team happened in that game! I thought for sure he was going to jack this manager, but he didn't, and the manager got control of his ball club. In another game, I seen him eject an assistant rather quickly, and the manager didn't even come out on it. No problems after that either.

I guess what I am getting at is that in both cases, I would have been inclined to do opposite of what he did, and that may or may not have worked for me. But after his 25 years of professional ball, he had a pretty good handle on when it was appropriate and even desirable to allow a confrontation to go a little long, and when a quick boot would serve the game well! It worked for him, and the players and coaches mostly showed great respect towards this guy!

So, don't be so quick to judge a situation that you didn't attend, especially when the way the person handled it worked out. All this typing out of situations on a bulletin board NEVER comes close to painted the most accurate picture of what really happened, and when it comes to handling situations, there is a lot of room for "You had to have been there" to come into play to fully appreciate how the person handled it!

Peace out bros. ;)

Chase him off? This is an ignorant statement. He is still at it. I did not work with him last year, so I have no idea if he has figured it out yet or not. Certainly, his one game working with me was not the only incident he had with veteran officials. My opinion of an umpire to our commissioner doesn't hold so much weight to hold them back from the varsity level, but a collective opinion sure would!