Strange, almost troll like, situation

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Justme

At tonight’s HS association meeting we varsity umpires were discussing some situations that we have seen during our scrimmages. A couple of the guys, one a current college umpire & the other a pro-school grad, described a situation they had the other day and asked “what would you call?” It’s difficult for me to imagine this happening but they assured us that it did.

Situation: Fly ball lands between first & second almost in the grass, no IFF. It lands with so much spin, or hits something, that the ball comes back toward the infield and exits fair territory between home and 1B settling foul. The ball was not touched. The college ump was working the plate and called it foul. The pro-schooled ump thought it should have been called fair but didn’t indicate so. Neither coach argued the foul call.

Our group was split with fair/foul. I argued on the side of fair because the ball went beyond 1st & 3rd before it landed in fair territory. The fact that it doubled back and then went foul should be handled just like a ball which is hit down the line past either 1st or 3rd lands fair then rolls foul.

What would you call it?

Fair in FED because they specifically state that if it goes beyond a line from 1B to 3B it's fair.

Foul in NCAA and OBR.

The pro-schooled ump thought it should have been called fair but didn’t indicate so. Huh?

[blewthatone]

This is a fair ball. Once it bounds or lands beyond the bag, in fair territory, it is fair. Doesn't matter after that. That is everywhere.

[bob jenkins]

I agree with Tim, although I originally envisioned the ball landing near the outfiled grass. Either way, he has it covered.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Tim C

By reading this play it does not appear to me that the ball EVER passed a base.

Justme clearly says it landed near the edge of the grass (I took that to mean the "inside" edge of the grass of the infield NOT the grass at the edge of the outfield.)

Maybe I misread the original post?

If I did not misread the play then Rich is correct that there is a separate ruling betwix FEDlandia and OBR.

Regards,

Sorry, I should have been clearer...it almost landed on the grass in the outfield.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by Tim C

By reading this play it does not appear to me that the ball EVER passed a base.

Justme clearly says it landed near the edge of the grass (I took that to mean the "inside" edge of the grass of the infield NOT the grass at the edge of the outfield.)

Maybe I misread the original post?

If I did not misread the play then Rich is correct that there is a separate ruling betwix FEDlandia and OBR.

Regards,

I've made a diagram. The FED fair/foul line is in blue.

Would the OBR's equivalent to the FED fair/foul line be what i drew in red?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bossman72

I've made a diagram. The FED fair/foul line is in blue.

Would the OBR's equivalent to the FED fair/foul line be what i drew in red?

That's the usual interp, yes.

[greymule]

Regarding those colored lines, I would draw the red lines on the inside of the bases. If a pop landed just to the fair side of 3B or 1B, I'd call it fair regardless of where it went after that. "Past the base," in other words, is past the leading (interior) edge of the base—thus past any part of the base, not necessarily entirely past the back edge.

This is to be consistent with the fact that a ball that hits the leading edge of the base is fair, and the fact that a ball that hits just inside 1B or 3B (but not past the back edge) and bounces over the bag and into foul territory would also be fair.

I'd move the blue line in slightly, too, to the "front" of the bags.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by bossman72

I've made a diagram. The FED fair/foul line is in blue.

Would the OBR's equivalent to the FED fair/foul line be what i drew in red?

The OBR interp. is that a ball that touches the ground beyond the blue line in the above diagram is a fair ball, regardless of where it ends up.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UMP25

The OBR interp. is that a ball that touches the ground beyond the blue line in the above diagram is a fair ball, regardless of where it ends up.

What's the source for that interp? I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen it (or don't recall seeing it).

[greymule]

I've been over Fed versus OBR a million times on this one and have never seen any evidence that OBR uses that "blue" line. In OBR, a ball that lands halfway between the mound and 2B is not considered to have landed "on or beyond first base or third base." If anyone can cite authoritative opinion otherwise, I'd love to know.

Interesting that Fed uses the blue line only for baseball and specifically inserts the 1B-3B line in its definition. Fed softball uses the same wording but omits mention of the 1B-3B line. So Fed softball uses the "red" lines (except that I would move them in to the front of the bases).

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What's the source for that interp? I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen it (or don't recall seeing it).

I'll have to try and remember, Bob, but trust me, from what I remember being told, it is a fair ball.

Grey, you are incorrect that a ball that falls untouched halfway between 2nd and the mound then rolls foul would be foul. Even common sense would dictate otherwise.

The concept of the diagonal of the square was devised to determine just what "past first or third base" would be when the ball doesn't go straight down either line. There has to be a "point" at which the ball would be fair when it goes into the infield but rebounds back foul. Grey's logic would mean that theoretically, a ball that falls into center field untouched but ricochets back foul before first base would consequently be foul. No way, since it passed the line connecting first and third base. (Never mind the fact that it landed beyond second base.)

[greymule]

If a ball lands in center field, then it has first touched past a base (2B) and is fair. It has landed past the line connecting 1B and 2B, and the line connecting 3B and 2B.

I still maintain that a popup that lands a foot to the mound side of 2B and spins back foul without being touched is a foul ball. If there is any evidence—in the MLBUM, J/R, rule book, PBUC, BRD—that the Fed 1B-3B line is observed in OBR, I'd like to know where it is.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Fair in FED because they specifically state that if it goes beyond a line from 1B to 3B it's fair.

Foul in NCAA and OBR.

The pro-schooled ump thought it should have been called fair but didn’t indicate so. Huh?

I'm assuming that when the PU called foul all action stopped. I guess the BU figured what the heck, why rock the boat.

Could you tell me where I can find where FED states that if it goes beyond a line from 1B to 3B it's fair? I said the same thing but couldn't find anything to support my claim in the rule book or case book last night.

Thanks

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Justme

I'm assuming that when the PU called foul all action stopped. I guess the BU figured what the heck, why rock the boat.

FED sez that if the ball's on the ground and its called 'foul', it remains foul. There's no provision to make it fair, so the BU couldn't change it even if he wanted to.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Justme

Could you tell me where I can find where FED states that if it goes beyond a line from 1B to 3B it's fair? I

Rule 2-5-1.b