Who's on third?
 

R1, R2, 0 or 1 out. Fly ball to right, and F9 busts toward the line to make the catch.

Base umpire (BU) must get the retouch of both runners. Right?
Plate umpire (PU) has catch/no catch and fair/foul. Right?

If R1 retouches and tries for second, BU has the play.

If R2 retouches and tries for third....

Who has the play?

I have always taught that the BU splits the difference and prepares for plays at either (or both) bases.

A supervisor for an independent minor league says the PU should take that play at third, even if it's the first play after the catch.

Any thoughts?

[[/QUOTE]

Papa C this type of play comes up every year and more than one occassion. It is mentioned as one of those type plays which "crys out" to have three person crews but we know due to budget constraints, etc. that doesn't happen until the end of the season come playoff time.

On a bill hit to F9, the PU vacates home plate to get the best possible angle which is to the right side of home plate. He has to first make sure of fair/ Foul and then make the catch call which could be difficult espcially if it's one of those soft sinking line drives.

As soon as R2 sees the ball Touch F9's glove he is taking off for third, so I do not know how the PU can get into proper position to make the call at third when he is concentrating on the "other" responsibilities.

Over the years it seems as though the PU in a 2 person system has gotten more and more responsibilities with respect to the bases than before. I do not know about everyone else but when you as PU have to "run around a lot" especially in the heat it takes away from our prime responsibility which is to call Balls / strikes.

As fatigue sets in, my timing caling balls / strikes is effected. We as PU want to get into that "zone" so that we are consistent and call a good game behind the plate. When we do a lot of running, etc. it takes away from that. It sems as though the BU is getting a "free ride" on many of these type situations. It's no wonder now-a-days that many prefer the bases to the plate.

In the example above, the BU is already in "C" and can straddle himself to see both the touches from R1/R2 and also make the call at third. Sometimes I do not understand the thinking that goes into these types of situations.

Pete Booth

I agree with Carl and Chris.

If F9 is busting toward the line, then the PU has the Fair/foul call. I, as the BU, know that I have everything except home in this scenario. Also, my partner is calling to me "I'm on the Line!" which tells me, I' am on my own.

For the rookies, that means that I have the tag at 3rd & 2nd and I also have B1 while the PU has the Fair/Foul, Catch/No catch and the plate.

Oh and Carl, Who's on first! :D

And,
 

I agree with Mr. Jenkins.

Regards,

Um, sixthed? Any BU worth his salt will be in position to make that call starting in C.

Carl,
Did the independant minor league supervisor tell you why they teach that the PU should be taking the runner to 3rd? It doesn't seem to make logical sense at all.
Jerry

If I'm BU, I'm already in C, and am going to move a bit towards the mound/3rd baseline a bit to try to see both base runners as the ball is caught (just enough to get them both in my vision, sort of a V). Yea, I'm giving up a bit on a throw to 1st behind a runner, but hell, there are times in a 4 man system when you give that up, and its so rare and less important that what is the likely play (2nd or 3rd) and the most important play (2nd and 3rd).

I would also agree with TussAgee. I believe that the PU should also yell OUT loud enough to help out BU, as this should be discussed in pre game especially if you are working with someone new. I believe that by yelling OUT it will help out if there is an appeal and the coach makes a statement that BU was not looking at both.

PFISTO noted:

"I believe that the PU should also yell OUT loud enough to help out BU . . . "

I agree, I always thought "I've got the line!" alerted the BU to his complete responsibility.

One Rule ~ One Interpretation ~ One Mechanic

Carl:

Everyone knows that Who's on FIRST, I Don't Know is on THIRD.

Bob

Besides, if the ball's down the first base line, the catch will be in the BU's field of vision as well---Right in the middle of the two runners he's keeping an eye on. The OUT call from PU will help, but everything should be happening right in front of the BU.

I agree, I always thought "I've got the line!" alerted the BU to his complete responsibility
Yes that would let BU know where his partner is and where he should be. And now this is a question wouldn't the PU loudly yelling OUT maybe give BU the abilty to focus more on R1 at 2nd and keep R2 in his side vision waiting for the OUT.???

The runner can leave as soon as the ball is touched. It's not a catch until F9 securely holds the ball. U1 should be watching the ball and the runner and not waiting for a verbal from PU.

99% of the time, R1 will not be tagging in this situation.

I agree...
 

I agree with Tim C...I was taught in the NAPBL minor leagues that the yelling of "I'm on the line" by the PU was the cue from the PU to the BU that the BU had any play into third.

I like the "I'm on the line".

In response to Bob Jenkins, this is the exact reason why as BU I'm gonna move towards the 3rd base line here. 99% of the time, nothing will be happening at 1st base, unless the RF is playing 30 feet into the outfield and its a linedrive. I'll be able to take 6-7 steps in any other situation towards first if I see a throw going there, and that will be able to get me the angle I need (even though I'm really far away).

Bob good point.
If the BU is waiting for an out call and the ball is misplayed yet still caught for an out then there could be problems. There is no doubt that the best practice is, as has been stated that you need to be ready for a play such as this and be in good position to see as much as you can and prepared to cover either base.
Do any of you work with the same umpire enough to have some type of signal to let your partner know that you saw a goood or bad tag up?

No, I don't have any signal or plan to use one. The tagups, as BU, are my responsiblity, if I missed it I missed it, no way PU should be looking for anything other than fair foul or catch no catch, or moving up the line towards third with R1 and not dealing with MY tagups.

If I missed a tagup, I missed it, and if PU was to help me on MY call, managers around here would pick me apart, and have good reason to do so.

I agree BU has both runners, and a large percentage of the time the throw is not going to 3B but 2B to keep R1 out of scoring position. Unless it is shallow and then R2 probably is not going anyway.

I don't see how anyone could advocate that PU take the runner into 3rd in this situation.

PU has fair/foul, then catch/no catch. He should be straddling the line and moving toward 1b. Anyway you slice it, the PU could not get anywhere near 3b to make a call there.

Bob:
 

IF I were the Minor League instructor I would say to you the following:

"Mr. Patrino the answer is obvious . . . if you, as an umpire, REALLY believe in "angle over distance" think about this play . . . the PU, no matter HOW FAR FROM THE PLAY has the "angle" for the call over the BU WHO WILL NEVER have the Angle!"

The MiLB instructor is simply testing those that say "angle over distance" and this is an excellent example of that concept.

Regards,

Remember, this wasn't a MiLB instructor, this was an independent league supervisor.

I think the only way to dispel this is to consider how this would have to be covered if the PU were to be able to get to third.

Someone has to stay with the catch/no catch after the PU determines fair/foul. If the PU is heading to third, it's not him. So the BU would have to pick up the catch/no catch aspect of this along with the tag of first and second on the first touch. So the BU would have to slide over from C and line up the touch and both tags while the PU busts a$$ down to third.

Yup, it's idiotic.

Set Priorities
 

Base Umpire jurisdiction with Runner(s) on Base
All runners touching 1st and 2nd.
* B/R touching 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
All tag-ups at 1st and 2nd.
All steals at 2nd and 3rd.
* All plays on bases, except when PU covers 3rd or end of rundown.

Plate Umpire jurisdiction with Runner(s) on Base
All runners touching 3rd except B/R.
All tag-ups at 3rd.
Steal of Home.
* Will help out on plays at 3rd:
a) 1st to 3rd situations.
b) In tag-up situations with runners on 1st and 2nd.
* Rundowns, if possible.

Does that include the cutoff man throwing behind R2 if he takes too big of a turn at third? Someone has to be in position to make that call if it happens.


Tim.

Hummm Baseball common sense, Anticipation. Does F9 have a good arm, how fast is R1 & R2, how deep was the ball hit, is F9 a lefty or righty, is R2 standing on the bag or halfway, is F9 coming in on the ball. These are things we have to pay attention to when we have a play in front of us that could end up resulting in any a number ways. Besides understanding the field mechanics I have been taught and learning in places like this I rely a great deal on my baseball common sense and allways try and get a feel for the game at hand.

Tee, I can buy into your theoretical "devil's advocate" argument. The problem comes when I try to sell my call at third from somewhere around the plate, or maybe even further across the diamond nearer the 45 foot line.

Do we not even try to gain angle on the possible trouble ball/foul ball on the RF line to sacrifice better angle for the play at 3b?

This is the classic quandary of compromise in the 2 man system. In most cases, if the BU is in C, and he drifts back moving toward the 3rd base cut out to open his field of vision to see tags by R1 and R2, he will be at pretty close to the same angle the PU would be in covering the catch. Plus the BU will be closer.

Yep,
 

Bobby thank you for pointing out that I tied to "explain" what the guy might have meant.

We all know that this is just one of the compromise situations that occurs in two man coverage.

We also "really know" that the clinician was wrong (if quoted correctly here) and that the poor BU has about 10 different things to do on this play.

I would love to have an e-mail address of the clinician so I could ask him "what did you really mean?"

One Rule ~ One Interpretation ~ One Mechanic (the correct one)

hmmm
 

To answer your first question, who's on third, why R3 of course?

PWL, please explain your point.....

(I will probably regret this)

I'm not PWL, but...

Fed nomenclature has R1 as the leading runner, thus, with bases loaded, or runner at third only or runners at second and third or runners at first and third, the runner at third is R1.

R2 is the next runner and R3 is the last runner. So, in FED nomenclature, with bases loaded you would have R1, R2, R3 where you would expect to find R3, R2 and R1.

The runners in FED keep their designation, so, again, if the bases were loaded and all runners advanced one base on a hit, R2 would now be on third.

Ah, I never expected that degree of subtlety. I suspected that's what he meant, but actually was waiting for some mis-read of a rule.. Thanks Mr. B.

That would be the PU, which is where he should be on this play, at the plate. He has no business at 3rd base on a ball down the RF line. He has the fair/foul, catch/no catch, and the plate. That's it. The BU has the rest.

Baseball common sense. We all got it. How come you think you're the only one who ever played baseball?

F9 busts toward the line
 

Base umpire covers the first play in the infield.

It's as I suspected. Your flippant comment about how others are making this hard shows you have yet to grasp the intricacies of two man mechanics. You should be able to anticipate where a throw might be going on the play, but there's no way to judge exactly where it's going until the play unfolds. I can see you stuck out of position hoping they don't throw behind the runner instead of getting yourself in a position to see it if they do. A good umpire is proactive on the bases.


Tim.