Who's on third?

[Tim C]

IF I were the Minor League instructor I would say to you the following:

"Mr. Patrino the answer is obvious . . . if you, as an umpire, REALLY believe in "angle over distance" think about this play . . . the PU, no matter HOW FAR FROM THE PLAY has the "angle" for the call over the BU WHO WILL NEVER have the Angle!"

The MiLB instructor is simply testing those that say "angle over distance" and this is an excellent example of that concept.

Regards,

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Tim C

IF I were the Minor League instructor I would say to you the following:

"Mr. Patrino the answer is obvious . . . if you, as an umpire, REALLY believe in "angle over distance" think about this play . . . the PU, no matter HOW FAR FROM THE PLAY has the "angle" for the call over the BU WHO WILL NEVER have the Angle!"

The MiLB instructor is simply testing those that say "angle over distance" and this is an excellent example of that concept.

Regards,

Remember, this wasn't a MiLB instructor, this was an independent league supervisor.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Remember, this wasn't a MiLB instructor, this was an independent league supervisor.

I think the only way to dispel this is to consider how this would have to be covered if the PU were to be able to get to third.

Someone has to stay with the catch/no catch after the PU determines fair/foul. If the PU is heading to third, it's not him. So the BU would have to pick up the catch/no catch aspect of this along with the tag of first and second on the first touch. So the BU would have to slide over from C and line up the touch and both tags while the PU busts a$$ down to third.

Yup, it's idiotic.

[SAump]

Base Umpire jurisdiction with Runner(s) on Base
All runners touching 1st and 2nd.
* B/R touching 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
All tag-ups at 1st and 2nd.
All steals at 2nd and 3rd.
* All plays on bases, except when PU covers 3rd or end of rundown.

Plate Umpire jurisdiction with Runner(s) on Base
All runners touching 3rd except B/R.
All tag-ups at 3rd.
Steal of Home.
* Will help out on plays at 3rd:
a) 1st to 3rd situations.
b) In tag-up situations with runners on 1st and 2nd.
* Rundowns, if possible.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

Depending on the depth of the fly ball and the caliber of play, the runner on first is usually going about halfway to begin with. If the ball is hit that deep there shouldn't be a play at third. You should be able to judge where the throw is going if you have any baseball common sense.

Y'all try to make it so hard sometimes

Does that include the cutoff man throwing behind R2 if he takes too big of a turn at third? Someone has to be in position to make that call if it happens.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

I suppose if they throw behind the runner and he continues home, someone needs to be in position to make that call, also.

Baseball common sense. Get some.

That would be the PU, which is where he should be on this play, at the plate. He has no business at 3rd base on a ball down the RF line. He has the fair/foul, catch/no catch, and the plate. That's it. The BU has the rest.

Baseball common sense. We all got it. How come you think you're the only one who ever played baseball?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

I suppose if they throw behind the runner and he continues home, someone needs to be in position to make that call, also.

Baseball common sense. Get some.

It's as I suspected. Your flippant comment about how others are making this hard shows you have yet to grasp the intricacies of two man mechanics. You should be able to anticipate where a throw might be going on the play, but there's no way to judge exactly where it's going until the play unfolds. I can see you stuck out of position hoping they don't throw behind the runner instead of getting yourself in a position to see it if they do. A good umpire is proactive on the bases.


Tim.

[PFISTO]

Originally Posted by PWL

Depending on the depth of the fly ball and the caliber of play, the runner on first is usually going about halfway to begin with. If the ball is hit that deep there shouldn't be a play at third. You should be able to judge where the throw is going if you have any baseball common sense.

Y'all try to make it so hard sometimes

Hummm Baseball common sense, Anticipation. Does F9 have a good arm, how fast is R1 & R2, how deep was the ball hit, is F9 a lefty or righty, is R2 standing on the bag or halfway, is F9 coming in on the ball. These are things we have to pay attention to when we have a play in front of us that could end up resulting in any a number ways. Besides understanding the field mechanics I have been taught and learning in places like this I rely a great deal on my baseball common sense and allways try and get a feel for the game at hand.

[RPatrino]

Tee, I can buy into your theoretical "devil's advocate" argument. The problem comes when I try to sell my call at third from somewhere around the plate, or maybe even further across the diamond nearer the 45 foot line.

Do we not even try to gain angle on the possible trouble ball/foul ball on the RF line to sacrifice better angle for the play at 3b?

This is the classic quandary of compromise in the 2 man system. In most cases, if the BU is in C, and he drifts back moving toward the 3rd base cut out to open his field of vision to see tags by R1 and R2, he will be at pretty close to the same angle the PU would be in covering the catch. Plus the BU will be closer.

[Tim C]

Bobby thank you for pointing out that I tied to "explain" what the guy might have meant.

We all know that this is just one of the compromise situations that occurs in two man coverage.

We also "really know" that the clinician was wrong (if quoted correctly here) and that the poor BU has about 10 different things to do on this play.

I would love to have an e-mail address of the clinician so I could ask him "what did you really mean?"

One Rule ~ One Interpretation ~ One Mechanic (the correct one)

[LLPA13UmpDan]

To answer your first question, who's on third, why R3 of course?

[RPatrino]

PWL, please explain your point.....

(I will probably regret this)

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

PWL, please explain your point.....

(I will probably regret this)

I'm not PWL, but...

Fed nomenclature has R1 as the leading runner, thus, with bases loaded, or runner at third only or runners at second and third or runners at first and third, the runner at third is R1.

R2 is the next runner and R3 is the last runner. So, in FED nomenclature, with bases loaded you would have R1, R2, R3 where you would expect to find R3, R2 and R1.

The runners in FED keep their designation, so, again, if the bases were loaded and all runners advanced one base on a hit, R2 would now be on third.