What would you do?
 

Lets say that you're working an OBR game. You have R1 and R3. It's the bottom of the last inning with two outs. Home team is down by two runs. F1 while in his motion hangs his knee and pauses before he delivers the pitch. Now, instead of using proper mechanics for a balk you first point to the pitcher and proclaim "time that's a balk." F1 delivers the ball to the plate where the batter takes it out of the park to deep center. Do you wait to see if the defense complains that you killed the ball before you disallow the runs and try to hide from your error, or do you eat it and end up dumping the offensive coach?


Tim.

I'm sure you meant to say F1, not F2. :)

Anyway, as soon as an umpire says "Time". Nothing may take place, even if the umpire calls time in error.

So I would disallow the hit, move the runners up a base and continue with the game.

Sure, there will be alot of yelling and argueing. (With good reason.) However, as I indicated before, once an umpire calls time.. That's it.
Time is called. Period.

Thanks I edited my post accordingly. My question isn't really about the rules. I think we all know that the call of time in this situation is final and cannot be undone. My question was of a more philosophical nature. Do you start to walk away since the batter just hit the apparent game winning homerun and hope the defense doesn't catch on, or do you set it right immediately.


Tim.

Yep, there's always the chance that somebody heard you call "Time," and if you try to BS your way around it, it can come back to bite you in the arse.

I have mistakenly called "Foul," and I know that nobody heard me above all the noise and excitement, but I had to eat the call because I knew what I had done, even if nobody else did.

When I call time everybody hear's it and if a partner call's time I repeat the call so everyone can hear.

Given that information it would be very difficult to simply walk off the field. Everyone would know that time had been called.

Now, it's not an umpire mistake, but I once had a situation where there were two outs in the last inning and the ball was hit to the shortstop who threw the ball to the first baseman but the first baseman was about six inches off the bag. The runner saw the throw beat him to the bag so he ran over the bag but NEVER touched the bag. So I simply stood there, no call to make yet. The fielders ran off the field and the BR took his helmet off and then walks toward the dugout. I wasn't sure what to do. I remember thinking do I call him out for abandoning when he gets to a certain point from first or do I simply let the game end.

I chose the later and simply let everyone go their respectful dugouts with only two official outs. Even my partner didn't catch it until I pointed it out later on the walk to the parking lot.

While there is some limited precedent for reversing a call of time, the given situation doesn't qualify, because the argument could (and surely would) be made that the pitcher let up upon hearing "time" called, and served up a meatball which is why the batter was able to jack it out.

So, you're stuck with Door # 2, which as you suggest would almost surely result in an ejection or 10. It would be a nightmare of a mistake to make, and depending on the league/level of play, could also be a career ending or career limiting mistake.

The correct call here should have been "SAFE, OFF THE BAG!" Once the BR has passed first base, he has "acquired" it. He is then subject to be out on appeal.

Hmmm,
 

BigTex wrote:

"The correct call here should have been "SAFE, OFF THE BAG!""

I thought Evans said that whenever both teams error (i.e. base not touch by BR and F3 is off the bag) that the correct "call" would to give a "weak" safe sign and say nothing.

Did I misunderstand this . . .

Regards,

I am trying to recall Evans' methodology on this and am not sure. If you give a weak safe call and the throw obviously beat the runner, aren't you going to have a sh!t house and have to call time before F3 can go tag him. I would consider giving a "toned down" off the bag call.

BigTex
 

Again, I might not have this right but:

Once the batter-runner has crossed over the bag he has "legally acquired" the base if F3 was off the base as in this play. I think, therefore, the correct mechanic is signal "safe" with no verbal comment.

Any other signal or comment alerts either team unfairly.

I may be confusing this with something else all together.

Regards,

You may be right. I am sure somebody will come along and tell both of us how they are friends with several major and minor league guys and they are going to call one of these friends and have the correct answer to us shortly.

One better
 

They'll quote the authoritative Jim Evans interpretation. :)

Do you mean this on?

Professional umpires are trained to render the "safe" signal and voice declaration at first base even though the batter-runner missed the base but is considered past the base when the tag of first base is made. This becomes an appeal play and the batter-runner would subsequently be called out for failure to properly touch the base. This is the proper mechanical procedure at all bases involving force plays. On plays which require a tag, professional umpires are instructed to make no call until the runner legally touches the base or the runner is tagged before legally touching the base.


Tim.

While this is a major screw up that I can't envision making, if I did, I would wait till the batter touched third and home and then I'm gone. If no one has said anything by then they are not gonna. I'm not going to correct this immediately.

Of course this is not a professional game, it's just an amateur game under OBR rules. So I'm not showing my hand until called. If called I will make it right and toss anybody who needs tossing.

Please see post #7

Please see posts #9 and #12.

Tim.

#12 is exactly what I paraphrased in #7.

Post 12 alone in 2 previous posts should read 12/13.
I hope this helps.

I'm not going to call any of my buddies:rolleyes:, but I have always been taught that the "Safe, he's off the base" call is only used when both the fielder is off the base, and the runner touches first base.

I do believe that Tim's (both) interpretations are correct for when the runner and fielder both miss the base. In this case, a casual, or weak, "Safe" signal with no verbalization indicates that the runner has acquired the base, but does not tip off either team to any infraction. That is my understanding of this mechanic.

Question:

Let's say that the ball, poorly thrown, beats the BR but F3 has pulled his foot. The BR's stride takes him over the bag without touching it. You give a weak safe signal with no verbal indication of the pulled foot. The coach sees the ball beat the BR but doesn't see the pulled foot or the missed base. He also sees your weak safe signal and figures that you just missed a call (your unusually weak safe signal helped him). Are you saying that you wait until the coach reaches your position to explain to him that F3 pulled his foot?

I was always taught differently.....but I've never been to one of Jim's clinics.

No, but I will wait until either F3 touches the base or the runner, or the runner returns safely to first, before I say anything. If F3 knows he was off the base, he can explain it to his coach. If the runner knows he missed first, he's going to try and get back before the base or he is tagged. None of this should take very long, and I don't know too many coaches that can make it out there before the situation takes care of itself.

Of course, I've never seen a runner stupid enough to miss first base, and F3 to be off the base, on the same play.:)

I never make a call on a runner at first until he is well past the base. Why would anyone make a call while he is still running to first?:confused:

So...
The moral of this story is don't F-up!

Fine.

How 'bout some PM. Train your Fed. umpires to change their balk mechanic to "that's a balk...Time!" instead of the other way around. Yeah, they can still botch up and keep the Time call at the end in their OBR games too, but they will at least have that half second or two to think it over.

I mean, in Fed. ball no matter what you say in any order, a balk, by rule, is a dead ball. Call it the OBR way and save (your tail).

D

I agree with you that the "weak safe signal" technique is fraught with faulty logic.

If it is an umpire's objective to not do anything to call attention to a missed base - and it is - then the mechanic for the given situation should be EXACTLY the same mechanic whether the batter runner touches the base or misses the base. That's Logic 101.

I would be surprised to learn that Jim Evans is teaching anything different.

Agreed, and if you don't at least give the sweeping motion for 'off the bag' you will agin invite dispute as the throw clearly beat the runner.

I would be inclined to a normal 'safe! off the bag!' and let it develop. If the runner acquired the bag, he acquired the bag. He's as safe as if he stepped on the bag until/unless he's appealed.

Once the base runner has touched first base he has "acquired" it or is there a new rule. I'm a high school umpire and we were tought that you actually have to touch the bag. tibear actually said the batter/runner "...ran over the bag but NEVER touched the bag". That would not give him possesion of first base. When he abandons the base he is called out.

No, when the BR passes 1B he is considered to have 'acquired' the base and the defense is required to appeal the missed base.

BUT

FED still has the 'accidental' appeal in effect for this situation (at first base only):

2006 NFHS Case Book
Page 65
8.2.3 Situation:
B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrives safely but misses first base. F3 catches the ball with his foot off the base and casually steps on first base, though he believes the runner has beaten the throw.

RULING:
B1 is out. Because a force play is being made on the runner and is the result of continuing action, F3 is required to appeal the missed base and does so by stepping on the missed base.

Notice the first sentence says "arrives safely but misses first base" and the last sentence "F3 is required to appeal the missed base"

I believe I'm correct is saying that other rule sets (e.g. OBR/NCAA) do not have the 'accidental' appeal.

Hmmm,
 

Not sure why anyone would question what Evans teaches:

I do believe, now, that my recollections of what Evans said while in Portland last spring is as reported:

I do not think anyone asked Evans directly if you give the "off the bag" verbal or physical signal. My recollection is that he told us to give a simple "safe" sign (and honest I don't remember if anyone tried to do a signal or verbal).

The "declaration" comment from Evans was explained as a "safe" call and not "off the bag" -- however all of this is coming from my memory which could be faulty.

"Justme": According to Elliot that play referenced is in error and will be eliminated in the near future.

Regards,

Give the proper safe signal. Then, if D appeals, "Out. He missed the bag."

I hope so, never liked 'accidental' appeals

Suppose the batter-runner is legging out a double. As he rounds first, he fails
to touch the bag, and continues on to second base. Would you do anything
other than wait for an appeal from the defense ? Running "through" the bag
at first, and failing to make contact would not be any different. If there is no
appeal, there is nothing to call, the batter-runner has acquired first base.

In FED you should call a BR out who has passed (acquired) 1B if you judge he is heading for the dugout or his defensive position with no intent to return.

Under OBR this is an interpretation where Evans and Roder appear to disagree. Roder's claim is that you can call a runner out for abandonment as soon as you feel he's progressed a "reasonable distance" toward his dugout or defensive position while indicating no intent to reassert his status as a runner.

J/R

Any runner (including the batter-runner) is out when:

A runner who discontinues his advance or return to a base, progresses a reasonable distance toward his dugout or defensive position, and indicates no intent to reassert his status as a runner, has abandoned his effort to run the bases. The cause of his actions (e.g., ignorance or apathy) is irrelevant.


Evans says this:


Common sense dictates that the only logical reason a player would abandon 1st base after overrunning it would be because he thought he had been declared out by the umpire. The player should not be penalized for an umpire's improper signaling or incorrect mechanic. Therefore, the runner should not be automatically called out if he temporarily leaves the extended basepath. A player who leaves the infield area abandoning the base paths between 1st base and 3rd base may be declared out once he leaves fair territory. If a play is being made on him, however, he is subject to the guidelines established in 7.08(a.1)...he must be advancing toward a base and cannot go more than three feet out of his direct line to avoid a tag. A runner who leaves 3rd base for any reason is not out until he enters a dugout when no play is being made on him. He shall be declared out for abandoning the base paths if a play is being made on him and (1) he is not making a bona fide effort to reach home plate or return to 3rd; or (2) he runs more than three feet out of his direct line to avoid a tag. A batter-runner who inexplicably fails to return directly to 1st base after overrunning it shall not be called out before entering the dugout. If he failed to touch the base, he is subject to an appeal play. He can be retired by the defensive team either tagging him or the missed base and making a proper appeal. In trying to get back to 1st base after missing it, the batter-runner must make a legitimate effort to proceed directly to the base. Any circuitous or evasive running which the umpire determines not to be an immediate attempt to reach 1st base shall be grounds for declaring the batter-runner out.



Tim.

And,
 

I, for one, will always follow Evans AS Roder is a nobody that has just tried to steal Evans's research.

T

Wow.......

Tee:

It's my understanding that the WUA now referrs all rules questions to Rick Roder for clarification.


FWIW.

Tim.

Therefore, a good solid safe signal removes the only common sense reason BR would think he has been called out.

Tim,
 

I recognize that Roder is the union interpreter of rules.

Regards,

I'd be interested to know how they work out whose opinion is most authoritative in other situations where Roder and Evans differ, Tim. For example, if I'm not mistaken, Roder claims a batter-runner cannot overrun first on a base on balls award without putting himself in jeapordy. Evans on the other hand says that he may overrun first on the award without being put in jeapordy unless he makes an attempt at second.


Tim.

Mr. Hensley wrote:

"Wow......."

Dave I agree. What I should have written was:

"It appears, at first blush, that Mr. Roder has used the extensive research of Jim Evans AND Carl Childress to his advantage in his writings."

Even a liberal Texas Democrat couldn't find fault with that.

I'm not familiar with Roder's position(s) on this question, but Evans in the JEA rules the opposite of what youv'e stated - he says a batter runner may NOT overrun 1B on a base on balls without liability. The MLB Umpire Manual, circa 2001, incorporated the contrary interpretation, that the batter runner may overrun on a base on balls without liability to be put out.

Both the J/R and JEA interpret contrary to the written rule, which states that a batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base. These two sources usually like to put their own spin on the rulebook, and probably feel that this book rule is somehow in error.

The MLBUM (in this case, the 2002 edition) interprets the rule as written:

NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(c)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(j), and 7.10(c).)

Dave:


This is all I find in the JEA on the matter.

Professional Interpretation: Though the batter is awarded first base without liability to be put out, he does incur responsibilities: (1) He must advance to and touch the awarded base or become liable to be declared out...see 4.09(b). (2) He becomes liable to be put out if he attempts to advance after missing the awarded base. (3) He should advance to and touch his awarded base before a substitute is allowed to take his place, unless he is being replaced because of an injury or illness...see Customs and Usage.


Tim.

Tim, this is under 7.08(c), Professional Interpretation, of the JEA:

A batter who is entitled to 1st base because of "four balls" being called may not overrun or overslide 1st base. This is an award which is administered while the ball is alive and in play. He is entitled to 1st base without liability to be put out...6.08(a). His liability to be put out resumes once he touches the base.

[QUOTE]In OBR there is already a precident that allows an umpire to reverse a call of TIME. I believe it happened this past year.

However, if F1 threw a lollipop to the plate then you disallow the HR and enforce the balk call, however, if F1 did not stop his motion or simply lob the ball across the plate, then in essence the players DID NOT React to the call of TIME and you can allow the play to stand.

IMO, the answer depends upon how F1 threw the ball to the plate after hearing TIME called. If in your judgement F1 threw the ball to the plate as if NO TIME had been called then allow the play to stand.

Also, as Dave said F1 will probably say that "he let-up" after hearing TIME called but what else do you expect him to say after giving up a gopher ball.

Either way the Umpire is going to "hear-it", however, if the players DID NOT React and if in your judgement F1 threw the ball like he normally would then allow the play to stand.

Pete Booth

Actually, J/R in the 2004 edition says in One Base Awards:
"...
(2) A base on balls.
....
The ball remains live and any runner who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base is out. However, the batter-runner is allowed to overrun first base, provided he returns immediately to the base."
So J/R in no way disagrees with MLBUM.

And as far as "own spin" goes, I only know of two situations in which J/R deviates from the rules as expiated in the the PBUC manual and the MLBUM. These involve the possibility of catching bounced pitch for a third strike, and interference on a runner being struck by a batted ball. Of course, JEA, J/R, PBUC, and MLBUM all deviate significantly from OBR.

My J/R is so outdated, J. R. Ewing hadn't gotten shot yet at the time of its publication.:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Pete:

I think your interpretation is a little out there. I'm curious under what conditions a precedent was set in OBR to set aside the call of "time." I know there's been a precedent set to reverse the call of "foul."

I think it would make matters worse if we tried to BS our way through it by claiming how the ball was thrown to the plate and how the teams reacted to the call makes a difference.

Tim.

The first edition of J/R was printed in 1990. JR was shot in 1980.

Yes, I realize this. I was joking. It just seems that out of date.

This is what my 1993 version says:

4. A runner (including the B/R) awarded a base due to a base on balls or detached gear (live ball awards) cannot be tagged out unless such runner passes his awarded base.

Steve,
I can't resist pointing out that your quote from the 1993 J/R is entirely true and correct. It is what is meant by being awarded a base without liability to be put out. Perhaps there is some additional verbiage to justify the notion that the converse statement is true, even for B/R?

Hey,
 

The Honorable Dave Reed noted:

"And as far as "own spin" goes, I only know of two situations in which J/R deviates from the rules as expiated in the the PBUC manual and the MLBUM. These involve the possibility of catching bounced pitch for a third strike . . . "

Roder has changed his interpretation of the bounced pitch foul (tip) ball call after someone on this board (sorry can't remember who) sent him the link to the discussion.

Evans sent an e-mail to several of the posters on this site correcting Roder's information. Roder, to his credit, polled several MLB umpires to get a well rounded review of the issue before correcting his error.

Regards,

I'm not sure what you want. :confused:

I was posting this to show that J/R said that the B/R cannot overrun 1st base on a base on balls without being put in jeopardy of being tagged out. Apparently, Roder had changed his opinion on this at some point in time since 1993.

In the same edition J/R says "a runner (including the batter-runner) awarded a base due to a base on balls or detached gear (live ball awards) cannont be tagged out unless such runner passes his awarded base with intent to advance." This agrees with what is written in the 2002 MLBUM.

Carl covers this in 2006 BRD, item 109.
FED: may not overrun the base. If he does, he is in peril of an out whether he feints or attempts an advance.
NCAA: may overrun first if he returns immediately, and does not make an attempt to go to second.
OBR: Same as NCAA. (7.08j; MLBUM 5.14-Note)

JEA has already been quoted here so it appears to me JEA offers the opposing viewpoint on this.

OBR 5.09
The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when --

(e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return.


Tim, we are talking semantics here. When an umpire calls FOUL for all practical purposes (other than a Fly ball that is FOUL), the ball is Immediately dead as when TIME is called.

This past year the Major League Umpires changed a FOUL call to FAIR (can't remember the game but I remember seeing the highlights on ESPN). Andy Konyar changed a FOUL call to FAIR in the LLWS.

Therefore, while the FOUL call was not preceded by the call of TIME , in the aforementioned instances the ball was immediately dead as if TIME had been called. The call was changed on the theory that the players did not react to the call of FOUL.

In your example, either way the Umpire is going to hear it. He/she BY RULE and PRECEDENT as in the aforementioned examples can award the game ending HR to the batter.

In a nutshell it's a grey situation as the Umpire can say that TIME was called hence No HR allowed an enforce the balk or he/she could rule that even though TIME was called, the players reacted as if NO Time had been called and allow the play to stand.

As mentioned the umpire is going to take heat either way EXCEPT in a FED game in which case the ball became immediately dead as soon as F1 committed the balk.

Pete Booth

I also found this tidbit from the Awards chapter in the same edition. It also seems to disfavor any overrunning 1st base on bases on balls:

Chapter 7: One Base Awards
(2) A base on balls.
A batter is awarded first base when four balls are counted. Sequential runners are also awarded their advance base. The ball remains live and any runner (including the B-R) who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base, is out.

By not making a call we as umpires put the runner in jeopardy. As always unless you have an out it is safe. The runner missing the bag is always an appeal play and to be called safe unless properly appealed.
There is nothing worse than the "no call" we can make. Always make a call, if you don't have an out it is safe.

I don't believe "we" put the runner in jeopardy. If he doesn't know what the call is, he can return to the base. Besides, he's probably not looking over his
shoulder to see a safe signal, and it is his responsibility to touch the bag.

Chuck........
 

I think what he's trying to say is that we alert the defense of a possible appeal by signaling nothing. That makes us the 10th man on defense and puts the runner at a disadvantage.


Tim.

according to OBR rules it is a delay dead ball and is not inforced if all runners including the batterrunner advanc atleast one base,therefore it ruled a homerun

Provided that the umpire used proper mechanics for a balk call you're correct. What's happened in this play is the umpire used improper mechanics and killed the ball before it was delivered. Upon the call of "time" in an OBR game, nothing can happen. No bases may be run, no runs may be scored, and no outs may be recorded.


Tim.