Would you do this?

[Dave Reed]

14U division of the Las Vegas Desert Classic last October. In total, 180 teams from 18U down to 10U, so there were 360 pool play games during two days. I was there as a spectator.

A. Following the plate conference, the home coach, following normal procedures, settled in on his bucket in foul territory to call the pitches. PU approached the coach and politely required that the coach and his bucket move just inside the dugout at the open doorway. He met the protests from the coach implacably, and moved over to the visitor's coach and (presumably) had the same conversation. I felt that PU was OOO, but admired his demeanor and control of the situation.
Soon the coach had edged the bucket partially out of the dugout. Following a foul ball, PU pointed the ball into play, and as the pitcher began his stride to the plate, PU called time. There was a chorus of "that's too late", while PU came up the base line to tell the coach to get back inside the dugout. This was very effective--the home coach didn't stray out of the dugout while on defense. The visiting coach didn't learn by example; his pitcher got the same treatment.
So PU wanted the coaches to behave in a particular way that is contrary to normal practice, and he got full compliance in less than 1 inning.
But would you use this tactic?

B. PU would delay for about 1 second before verbally or orally signaling a called strike. He made no signal on balls. Soon a batter with a 3-2 count left promptly for first base on a borderline pitch, and PU rang him up. After that, any pitch with a 3 ball count, no matter how far out of the strike zone (including one which reached a very deep backstop on the fly), was a strike if the batter didn't wait for the 1 second delay. So by the third inning, the batters were most assuredly no longer "showing up" the umpire.
Are there any circumstances in which you would routinely alter the strike zone significantly to make a point?

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

He made no signal on balls.

I hope he didnt make a signal.

[SanDiegoSteve]

1) No. I would never prohibit bucket sitting. To do so is considered very OOO in my area. As long as nobody intentionally interferes, the coaches are allowed on their buckets, even if they are slightly into live ball territory.

2) No. I would never alter the strike zone to make a point. I call balls balls and strikes strikes. I don't care for umpires who don't say "Ball" on balls. It makes everyone guess. If the batter takes off before I call it, it's either a strike or a ball, depending on pitch location only. I love to make them come back too, but only if the pitches are strikes.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

1) No. I would never prohibit bucket sitting. To do so is considered very OOO in my area. As long as nobody intentionally interferes, the coaches are allowed on their buckets, even if they are slightly into live ball territory.

2) No. I would never alter the strike zone to make a point. I call balls balls and strikes strikes. I don't care for umpires who don't say "Ball" on balls. It makes everyone guess. If the batter takes off before I call it, it's either a strike or a ball, depending on pitch location only. I love to make them come back too, but only if the pitches are strikes.

And make sure you hesitate and extra second or so, just so the batter gets further down the line....

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

And make sure you hesitate and extra second or so, just so the batter gets further down the line....

Why, naturally!

[bluezebra]

Altering the strike zone to prove a point is CHEATING. Any umpire who has to resort to these types of reprehensible tactics should be barred.

Bob

[DG]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

14U division of the Las Vegas Desert Classic last October. In total, 180 teams from 18U down to 10U, so there were 360 pool play games during two days. I was there as a spectator.

A. Following the plate conference, the home coach, following normal procedures, settled in on his bucket in foul territory to call the pitches. PU approached the coach and politely required that the coach and his bucket move just inside the dugout at the open doorway. He met the protests from the coach implacably, and moved over to the visitor's coach and (presumably) had the same conversation.

B. Are there any circumstances in which you would routinely alter the strike zone significantly to make a point?

A. I have coached in, and worked tournaments where TD was emphatic about coaches and players staying in the dugout, unless legally permitted on the field (ie on deck hitter). My state is also pretty emphatic about it in HS ball. The more experienced coaches abide by the rules, and the newer ones have to be trained. I don't consider it OOO when the TD is emphatic about it at a summer tournament, and the state is emphatic about it for HS play. As to moving over the visitor's dugout to have the same conversation I would not do that until it was necessary. It is usually a much larger issue keeping players in the dugout, than the coaching staff.

I'm sure you have heard of the game in Western NC that was forfeited when half the team came out to congratulate a home run hitter who had just hit a go ahead home run (multiple runners) in a late inning. Everyone out of the dugout was ejected causing the other team to win by forfeit. Now THAT is OOO, and wrong, since the ball is dead when it went over the fence.

B. Routinely-NO, to make a point-YES (see FYC).

[LMan]

A. If the coach was asked nicely and refused to comply, I have no sympathy for him on what followed. Some coaches just have to be hit over the head...I owned a dog like that once

B. I agree with DG 100%

[PeteBooth]

A. Following the plate conference, the home coach, following normal procedures, settled in on his bucket in foul territory to call the pitches. PU approached the coach and politely required that the coach and his bucket move just inside the dugout at the open doorway. He met the protests from the coach implacably, and moved over to the visitor's coach and (presumably) had the same conversation. I felt that PU was OOO, but admired his demeanor and control of the situation.
Soon the coach had edged the bucket partially out of the dugout. Following a foul ball, PU pointed the ball into play, and as the pitcher began his stride to the plate, PU called time. There was a chorus of "that's too late", while PU came up the base line to tell the coach to get back inside the dugout. This was very effective--the home coach didn't stray out of the dugout while on defense. The visiting coach didn't learn by example; his pitcher got the same treatment.
So PU wanted the coaches to behave in a particular way that is contrary to normal practice, and he got full compliance in less than 1 inning.
But would you use this tactic?

The aforementioned IMO is simple. Since this is a Tournament, simply ask the TD what is accepted practice and then enforce.

B. PU would delay for about 1 second before verbally or orally signaling a called strike. He made no signal on balls. Soon a batter with a 3-2 count left promptly for first base on a borderline pitch, and PU rang him up.

The aforementioned does not make any sense to me. I do not consider waiting one second to call the pitch to be a DELAY tactic on the part of the PU. That's what we are supposed to do. During training we are instructed not to call the pitch too quickly. Waiting a second or 2 or what's more commonly referred to in the umpire profession "a beat or 2" is perfectly acceptable.

Therefore, how is the batter "leaving promptly for first base" if he doesn't give the PU a second or 2 to call the pitch to begin with. To me "that is showing up the umpire".

Pete Booth

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The aforementioned IMO is simple. Since this is a Tournament, simply ask the TD what is accepted parctice and then enforce.

From what is written, it appeared that the coaches were under the impression that the accepted practice of this tournament was that bucket sitting in live-ball territory was permissible. The umpire seemed to be the only one there who didn't like it. There are many teams from my area that attend this tournament, and trust me, they are used to bucket sitting as an accepted practice, no questions asked.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The aforementioned does not make any sense to me. I do not consider waiting one second to call the pitch to be a DELAY tactic on the part of the PU. That's what we are supposed to do. During training we are instructed not to call the pitch too quickly. Waiting a second or 2 or what's more commonly referred to in the umpire profession "a beat or 2" is perfectly acceptable.

Therefore, how is the batter "leaving promptly for first base" if he doesn't give the PU a second or 2 to call the pitch to begin with. To me "that is showing up the umpire".

I wonder if this will lead into another long-winded discussion on what is or is not proper timing, and what constitutes "fake" timing.

But the bottom line is that if the batter leaves before the umpire calls the pitch, he is showing up the umpire. In this case, however, the umpires poor mechanics may have contributed to the confusion as to what the calls were, since he didn't verbalize "Ball" calls.

[RPatrino]

As to the "bucket sitting" phenomenon, our summer ball association president had emphatically stated prior to this season that there would be, " No buckets allowed anywhere in live territory". We were told to announce that at the plate conference and if coach's had a problem with it they could call him personally. We announced and had no questions or issues.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by LMan

A. If the coach was asked nicely and refused to comply, I have no sympathy for him on what followed. Some coaches just have to be hit over the head...I owned a dog like that once

LOL

I've always said every coach has to be treated like a smart, large dog. If you aint willing to smack 'em good every now & then you're finished.

[blueump]

I've never had a problem with a bucket sitter, unless he opens his mouth to complain. I had a coach start screaming about a call at second from his bucket in live ball territory. Finally, after he wouldn't let it go, I forced him to move his bucket back inside the dugout. 1 1/2 innings later he casually came by and asked if he could go back to his bucket if he promised to keep his mouth shut. I agreed, glad that he got the point.

My strike zone is my strike zone. The only time it gets bigger is if the score is 38-0 and we are still in the 3rd inning! Then it may get wider, but not outrageously.

[chuckfan1]

Its not OOO to get the buckets where they belong,, back in the dugout, or under a faucet. Where did all this start? And why? Its not allowed in live ball territory in Fed, and you sure wont see it in College. So why at the youth level. If coach needs to give signs he can give em the way they have always been given. Now your starting to see variations of the bucket... little fold out chairs, etc.....no need.
When I first started, the guy who mentored me always said the following at the plate meeting (youth ball) "...and guys, no buckets, benches, barrels, or barcaloungers, you and your coaches, can come out, no further than the end of your dugout...." etc... Always got a slight smile from the coaches, and never had a problem....
That worked for him. On the occasion I do youth ball, its a quick mention at the plate meeting, and never a problem. Here in So Cal, the bucket brigade is starting to go away. Dont see it much anymore, as it seems more officials are moving em out...

[MD Longhorn]

Kind of stupid to penalize a batter for getting a prompt start to first base on what could be a 4th ball. The ball is live and he can keep going - it is not "showing up the umpire" to try to get whatever advantage he can.