Arguing balls and strikes
 

I've tried to search past posts for this, to no avail, so I'll just ask. I apologize if you have recently discussed this.
I know that arguing balls and strikes is a big no-no, and any manager that persists at all, or comes on the field to argue b/s has pretty much bought his own one-way ticket. But what about when the manager goes to the mound to talk to (or change) his pitcher. It seems that there is a convention (at least at higher levels) that when the PU comes out to break up the conference, the manager can usually get in a few comments that he might not otherwise.
I was just curious how some of you handle the mound conference in regard to balls/strikes. Do you let the manager say something there that he could not say elsewhere? Or is arguing b/s the same here, there, and everywhere?
Thanks for any and all responses.

For HS varsity (or JV), I would not let the coach make comments while he's changing pitchers. For one thing, arguing balls and strikes is prohibited by rule throughout the contest. For another, it sets a bad example in front of the two players most likely to whinge about it, namely F1 and F2.

If the coach starts to make any kind of comment about the calls I'm making, I interrupt and ask: "coach, are you arguing balls and strikes?" I think that sends the message without being too confrontational. I will add, however, that in the HS games I worked in 2006, I did not have to use this strategy at all.

Only the more experienced Coaches are going to take this approach. This has happened to me a few times over the years. In this situation I'll cut him some slack. Obviously he's not trying to show me up. I'll listen to what he has to say (that really all he wants) and then we play on.

I find it amazing that the vast majority of "interactions" that I have had over the years with managers / coaches involve judgement calls, not rule interpretations, or combinations of judgement & rule interpretations, i.e., balk calls. Many of the rules "discussions" come about because of change(s) in the rule(s), or the manager / coach's firm belief in one of the "myths". In fact, many of the managers / coaches I see haven't read the current rule book and / or don't even have the current edition. There are exceptions, of course, and some of the very best have learned how to use the rules to their advantage. I have found the above to be true from Little League all the way through Junior College levels, baseball and softball! Although I only do those two sports, I believe it to be accurate across most it not all sports.

And your point is?

I have in fact often seen that the coach may want to make comments, and not gone to break up the meeting, it doesn't last all that much longer maybe 10-20 sec. And you can see how frustrated he is when he walks away. Nope just kidding, actually that happened early in my ump life, when I didn't really know I was to break up the meeting, and the coach was so mad, then found it so funny that he came to me after the game saying he was standing there waiting and the players finally asked him if we could get back to the game. When I told him I didn't even think to break up the meeting he nearly fell over, I never had a stich of trouble from him as a coach ever, and He has gone out of his way to help me improve tremendously. Funny how things happen.

If I get caught in this senario now, it would go similar to above posts, a little more tolerance, but not much before a warning.

you want to see what happens when johnny damon argues balls and strikes??:

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/script...&urlstr=&murl=


hehehe. i always enjoy watching this video.

Bossman, are you trying to get in my business? ARE YOU TRYING TO GET INTO MY BUSINESS?

Didn't think so :P

Actually Federation rules do not prohibit it. Is there anyone who actually allows arguing in Federation games that they would not allow in games played under other rule codes?

LDUB;

Are you saying that you can argue judgment calls under FED rules?

I go up to break up the confrence.

Coach starts in on me, but its not obvious to anyone.

I'll ignore and break up the conference, and start to walk back to the plate. If he chases me there, and its about balls and strikes, seeya.

Hmmm,
 

I have not gone to the mound to break up a conference in 10 years or more.

Regards,

And this signifies......? No manager has intentionally stalled on the mound in the last ten years, or that you just don't care how long the manager delays the game?

Steve:
 

Fair question:

I am the member of a listserve of umpires. When I posted this same thing they were amazed.

In my area it has been made clear that the "mound conference" is part of the teaching of the game. We allow that to happen.

SDS, I would ask, how long should you wait? 20 seconds, 30 . . . you get my drift I am sure.

So to make you happy with your question . . . I don't care . . .

Now let me explain, if you'll allow that, why it is this way in my area:

Under the last two Oregon State University Head Coaches D-1 college umpires were told: "if you come out here and break up my conference you'll NEVER work here again."

Pretty simple.

Those umpires brought back to our group the philosophy that we should work with coaches and the conference. It is pretty simple.

Steve, I don't expect you to agree . . . but I see no reason to go out and break up the conversation . . . 90% of the time the guy really is "teaching" and the other 10% I am not going to fall for.

You always try to force us to accept the "San Diego Way" and some of us have our own ways.

BTW, I would not allow any coach to use the mound conference for a vehicle to argue balls and strikes . . . I would "Bill Miller" him immediately.

In the last 10 years I have not gone to the mound during a conference and it has worked fine for me.

Regards,

And if they don't like your strike zone, or a close call that goes against them or ?????

Maybe the umpires should refuse to work OSU games..... If I were working D-1 ball in your area they could ki$$ my..........backside :)

Just
 

And, sadly, you would not be missed.

There are many, many umpres that would step over your dead body to work the games of the NCAA National Champion.

Things are what they are my friend . . . much like when I umpire I am just reporting what I see.

Regards,

I love this video!

And I have already used this once already on a base coach - "Do you want to argure balls & strikes? GOOD!"

Hmmmmm.....

I was trying to force you to accept the San Diego way????

WTF is the "San Diego Way?"

No, no, no.....I wouldn't force my way of doing things on anybody.

I was thinking along the lines of, ummmm, let's see......the professional way. In nearly every MLB game I've ever witnessed, the PU has to come out to break up the mound visit, especially when the manager is just stalling so his reliever can get loose.

See, I give them plenty (in my estimation) of time to chat, then I purposefully dust the plate thoroughly, then if they are still gabbing on and on after all this time has elapsed, I stride (purposefully, again) to the mound area and then, usually one of the conversants will tip off the coach to my approach and the conversation usually comes to a halt. If not, I say "let's go to work," and they go to work.

I'm really sorry that you must kiss Oregon State's booty in order to work their games. I say F**k That. Guess that's why I never made it to D-1. My nose is white, not brown.

Steve, Steve, Steve . . .
 

Do you think I don't understand the MLB way . . . come on. I worked a lot of years and broke up a lot of conferences.

I am trying to tell you the way it is in my area.

That's all . . .

SO when skippy goes out . . . I s l o w l y take out my line up card . . . I write down anything I can . . . I s l o w l y fill my ball supply . . . and I s l o w l y clean the dish . . . I then walk up either the first base or third base line . . . as soon as I hear a fan chirp "gees, blue how long do they get" I then make sure I go and talk with the on deck hitter about something really important . . . a conference has never lasted this long.

Steve, we may never agee as to how umpiring should be done . . . but htat OK cuz it is just style and nuttin' else.

Regards,

Now that I think about it
 

Makes a good point. Having thought about it, I can't remember the last time I had to break up a conference.

If a coach does want to complain he would have to come to me or visit me at the on-deck circle etc.,

Maybe its just good coaches, but usually after 30 or so seconds they will always break it up on their own.

If they want to take longer, who cares ... if it will help F1 throw strikes, who am I to complain ???

Thanks
David

I guess that I have heard it all. Our job on the "stick" is to keep the game flowing. The coach can get his point across to his pitcher within 15-20 seconds once he hits the dirt of the mound. What are you going to do Tim, let the skipper pull up a lawn chair and pow-pow with the guys for an hour?
I have never heard of coaches "red-lining" guys for " breaking up their little meetin'. Give me a break. Some of the stuff I hear on this board is a bunch of crap sometimes. Guys...listen..and trust me......WE BREAK UP TRIPS TO THE MOUND IF THE COACH IS OUT THERE TOO LONG!! And being out there too long is 15-20 Mississippi's......... Chris

Yes, the book says the coach is allowed to come to the plate to discuss pitches.

I didn't realize the discussion was about bringing in a new pitcher. I thought we were discussing conferences on the mound while leaving the same pitcher in the game. Perhaps others don't have problems with coaches that will unnecessarily delay the game while giving an extended pep talk to their pitchers during a conference. If Tee doesn't have that problem then he's very fortunate to have coaches who understand that they need to get their business done relatively quickly during a conference. It's been my experience that the coaches in my area don't have that understanding and sense of decorum, so we have to break up conferences quite a bit. Usually all I have to do is start walking toward the mound and they get the message and finish before I have to get all the way out to say something.


Tim.

You must have a different book than I have. Where does it say that the coach can come out and argue the PU's strike zone?

Chris:
 

Again, for the final time, I have not gone to the mound to break up a conference in 10 years.

Chris said:

"I have never heard of coaches "red-lining" guys for " breaking up their little meetin'. Give me a break. Some of the stuff I hear on this board is a bunch of crap sometimes."

Chris, it appears you are calling me a liar -- is that correct?

There is no place, that I know of, where the NFHS Rule Book says a coach can argue balls/strikes. Luke, please direct me to the passage so I can work making my local group more sensitive to rats needs.

Proper length isn't a set time, T. You challenge me in PM and say I'm on the clock for getting back to you, call me a name because you don't know what to do when challenged but degrade, and then turn off your PM so I can't answer you.

Dont' want to waste bandwith on me? Then don't PM me

As for the subject at hand (sorry to ya'll, if somebody PMs me and gets on me and I can't respond via PM, and I'm challenged profanely, I need to respond here)
At around 30 seconds I'm at the mound causally and the manager says, "Ok Johnny, here we go! strikes. Thanks Blue." We go our seperate ways and get back to playing ball.

Liar is such a strong word. I cannot answer why D-1 guys in ur area wont go to the mound. Do you currently work D-1 ball Tim? If you dont, them dont worry about the D-1 coaches. Since you are the only person that I have ever heard of who dont go to the mound, it makes me wonder a little. Chris

There is no equivalent of the comment of 9.02a from the OBR in the Federation rule book. There is no rule which says participants who argue balls and strikes shall be ejected.

I though it was in the case book, but it is a question from an old exam. "A player or coach who questions a ball or strike shall be ejected." The correct answer is false.

How about 10-1-4: "Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as whether a hit is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final" (my emphasis).

True, the rule does not explicitly say that arguing balls and strikes leads to an ejection. FED generally prefers a less confrontational approach and discourages ejections. But if my decision is final, then I'll warn a coach who argues balls and strikes and, if necessary, eject him for failing to observe the warning.

What else would "final" mean in this context, Luke?

But a player or coach who persists in arguing balls and strikes after being warned to stop arguing is liable to be ejected, no matter by what set of rules the game is being played.

This is just nothing more than a bait and hook. Give just part of the facts and wait for people to respond and THEN tell the rest of the story.

FYI. did this to me on another forum. He said he would never work with this new umpire because that umpire made a rookie mistake. All's he was doing was asking for advice and then Big Timmy C comes along and berates him. I called him on it saying that he should give the kid some slack and that we all make mistakes even as veterans.....well, except one. He had the cojones to pm me and say that I'm on his "list", (whatever the hell that's suppose to mean). He also told me to get a few years under my belt before I shoot my mouth off. It's real easy to act tough behind a computer.

So Tim, should I expect another one of your threatening pm's........

As we all know, final does not mean that the manager is not allowed on the field to argue the call. That exact sentence is in the OBR, but everyone who has ever seen a game on TV knows that by practice/tradition it is not enforced that way. Unlike other sports, in baseball the manager is allowed to stop the game to argue a judgement call with an official, that is just the way it goes.

Hmmm,
 

Luke, while it is true that I only have the last 15 years of Test Part 1 and 2 none of them have the question that you are discussing: could you tell me where to find it so I can change my statewide training manual.

Tuss, I did not send you a profane PM.

Chris, there are probably 30 other umpires in my area that don't break up mound conferences. You simply called me a liar and since I have known you on the internet for so long I was surprised.

Gee, sports101 how I have missed you . . . can't you do better than this. And as always I'll,leave my computer and meet you face-to-face grafftti artist as you are.

I will continue working my games in my way . . . as expected in my area . . . as worked by umpires in this area.

It is question #60 from the 1993 Part II exam. Also I never said these types of actions should be allowed, I was just wondering if anyone actually did anything different in their Federatin games than in their NCAA/OBR games.

LDUB:

Do you really allow coaches to argue balls/strikes with you? If you do I'd love to see one of your games, I hope that they are on time limits. Where do you umpire?

Arguing balls/strikes is not allowed in any level of baseball. The word ‘final” in the FED means that arguing judgment calls is not allowed. I’ve never been to a clinic that teaches otherwise, have you?

All you have to do is provide me with the reference in the rule book (any rule book) stating that a coach can come out of the dugout and argue strikes/balls with the PU. I'd love to see it because according to you I've been doing things incorrectly for many years.

If a coach or player starts to argue balls/strikes with me I'll stop him short with a warning......if he does it again then he's gone, it's that simple. You don’t argue balls/strikes…….at least not more than once :)

And
 

I agree with Just Me . . . I feel you have mis-interpreturpted a question I opined the reverse . . . and was deemed correct . . . me thinks you need to review your position. . . I just looked at your referenced test and don't find that question . . . I am probably wrong but which question # was it . . . #60 does not fit

That is the point of my question. The NF does not prohibit arguing balls and strikes like the other rule codes do, coming out to argue about a pitch is the same as coming out to argue about a tag play at second base. I was wondering if anyone allows more arguing in Federation games than in an OBR/NCAA game because of the way the rule is written.

That may be what it means, but that is not how it is enforced. The manager/head coach is allowed on to the field to argue a judgement call and hold up the game for a reasonable ammount of time.

Unlike the OBR and NCAA rules there is no wording in the NF book which specifically prohibits arguing balls and strikes.

NCAA - After a warning, any player or coach who continues to argue balls, strikes, or checked swings, shall be ejected from the game.

Federation - Nothing about the topic

I really do not understand why you are arguing with me, all I did was state a fact that the NF rule book does not specifically prohibit the arguing of balls and strikes and then asked a question how people handel the arguing of balls and strikes in games played under different rule codes.

It is in the BRD as 1993 Part II #60. It may be wrong, I don't know, but you will have to take it up with Carl.

Actually FED rules do prohibit arguing balls/strikes but you don't seem to understand that...that's okay.

There is a difference, IMO, between a manager/coach arguing balls/strikes and questioning a tag at second. An example: Thursday night I was the BU working 2-man in an Adult League game. Possible double play situation but the throw was bad and caused F4 to be pulled off 2B. F4 and R1 made contact but R1 made it safely to 2B. The defensive manager "asked" for time and came out to talk with me about the play.

Coach to me: "Al I know he was off the bag, but he tagged him"
Me to coach: "No coach, he ran into him but there was no tag. I was in perfect position on the play and saw it all the way."
Coach to me: "Okay Al, thanks"

I'll admit that not all conversations with coaches go this smoothly but I have a reputation for busting my butt to get into position and making good calls (now patting myself on the back :) ). Also I've worked dozens of games for this coach so he knows that if I weren't 100% sure I would go for help.

Bottom line: I'll talk with a coach occasionally on close plays. Sometimes a coach has to come out and question a call. There are times when he wants to hear your explanation for making a call. Some umpires may not allow this but I do. What I will not allow is a coach to come out to the plate and question my strike zone.

I believe that Luke's point was about the rules, not their enforcement.

If the point is simply that FED does not have the same words as 9.02, then I agree. As I read 10-1-4, however, it prohibits arguing judgment calls.

We might allow coaches to come out on a close play at 2B to inquire whether we saw everything, but once we say the magic words, "In my judgment..." the conversation is over. If the coach stays now he risks violating the 3 P's and an ejection. Why? Because judgment calls are final.

In other words, we don't allow coaches to come out to question our judgment, we allow them to come out to discuss whether we saw everything that happened (which should inform our judgment).

We never allow that for ball/strike calls because (we assume) the PU always sees the pitch. But the principle is the same: judgment calls are final.

I was just curious how some of you handle the mound conference in regard to balls/strikes. Do you let the manager say something there that he could not say elsewhere? Or is arguing b/s the same here, there, and everywhere?
Thanks for any and all responses.[/QUOTE]

First, as with most of these type posts I do not believe your question was answered except by TEE and a few others.

You asked a specific question and the thread turned in a different direction which has been a major problem with this Forum and regretably so.

The answer is as TEE points out:

Whatever is the accepted practice in one's association. Forget about OBR/NCAA and FED. The answer lies in the association one works for. TEE gave you what works in his, however, that doesn't work in mine because I know of some coaches who would have breakfast and lunch if you didn't go out to break up the conference.

As far as arguing balls / strikes after breaking up the conference, it depends. If it was just a simple displeaure etc. I probably would let it go, however, if the coach specifically blamed me becasue F1 was losing his control or had a derogatory tone, he would continue on to the patking lot.

Today is VERY different from when I played and IMO for the worse. When I played we used to actually talk to one another (what a concept). Tell the next hitter where the umpire was calling them today and also if F1 had REAL heat or a mean hook that day.

Today you could call the same pitch all game long and for some strange reason , the hitters / coaches think you are suddenly going to change and conform to them.

The game has changed a lot. Also, you cannot compare the Professional game to the amateur game. Umpires especially in the World Series give players / managers much leeway. The amateur game is different.

To sum up: What is the accepted practice in your area. The most important point is to be consistent in your approach.

Pete Booth

I am extremely fortunate I do not work under FEDlandia constraints.



FWIW, I don't recall the last time I went to the mound to break up a "conference".

As has been previously stated, you work under the rules of your association and the conference or league that is paying you.

If you don't like said restrictions, don't work for those people.

Going for Help?
 

Was this obstruction or interference?

Sounds like a train wreck to me.


Tim.

Neither...just a train wreck.

No, the throw was so far off that F4 was lucky to even catch the ball, he had no chance to make a play at 1B. If anything, and this would be pretty 'nitpicky', F4 obstructed R1...except that R1 made it safely to 2B.

Nothing looks worse, to me, than everybody, including PU, standing around twiddling their thumbs for an extended period while a coach and his battery (and maybe others) stand there and figure out what to get Millie for her wedding present and where they can find a live rooster to take the curse off Jose's glove.

I have been taught, and follow religiously, an established protocol for how long I allow a visit to last. As the coach is going towards the mound, I observe and make note of the visit on my lineup card. When he gets to the mound, I immediately go brush the plate. Upon completing the plate brush, I turn and begin walking out to the mound. 90% of the time, the visit has concluded or concludes before I get there, in which case I turn and walk (I used to trot, but I saw Jim Joyce walking with authority, and I thought it looked cool) back to the plate. If I make it to the mound, I stand there next to the coach for 5-10 seconds, and then ask if he's going to make a change. Sometimes I suggest that candlesticks always make a nice gift. If he has been waiting for the opportunity of a face to face to whine about balls and strikes, I warn and eject, and I think that has actually happened to me maybe once in my career.

This is something of a hot button issue for me because I tend to have partners who manage these time-outs so badly it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Coach sets up a temporary residence out on the mound, and partner just stands there, then after a minute or so, hollers out "let's go!"

It looks (and sounds) horrible. If the coach is out there looking for an opportunity to argue balls and strikes, then refraining from going out there just looks like you're afraid to. The issue should be confronted, not avoided.

I amazed by the notion that people have that because Tee says he hasn't broken up a conference in ten years it immediately must follow that coaches hold picnics on the mound.

Anyone even consider that the possibility that the conferences remain reasonable in duration? Why on earth must you jump to the conclusion that because A equals B, B must equal C.

Amazing.

I've seen Tee work. I've seen conferences in his games. I have not seen lawn chairs or even minute long conversations.

Well, I never
 

Well I never seen Tee work, but I do know that he often brags about his game management skills. I know he keeps a record of every game and that he is often done in less than 2 hours. So why would he need to speed things up a bit? OOO, I think not.

I expect that Tee works in an area where there is a mutual understanding among coaches and umpires: coaches don't take too long, and umpire don't break up conferences.

Elsewhere, that understanding does not exist. Coaches stall, try to talk to umpires, or otherwise prolong conferences. Then it's our duty to move the game along.

For the record, my routine is a lot like Dave Hensley's. I might take a few seconds longer putting my plate brush away...

I showed a question from a NFHS test question which said that "questioning a ball or strike" is not a reason for ejection. The rule book has several pages about field behavior. There is a section about warn then eject situations, warn or eject situations, and eject situations. Nowhere in any of those sections is arguing balls and strikes listed. While I have the rule book and a exam question on my side, you have not come up with any support for saying that NF rules do not allow arguing balls and strikes.

Yes, you're right. I use that same test to make that point in the BRD.

This will be my last post on this subject. My point has always been that I only break up a trip if I feel the coach is taking too long. I have gone through several games where I have never walked to the mound because the coaches make it quick. I do not believe a trip is a teaching tool. Teaching is at practices. A trip, IMO, is to talk stragity. And it should not take longer than 15-20 mississippi's + or - a little. If you are on the dish and the coach is chirpin about pitches...then decides to walks to the mound to talk to his pitcher, he probually wants to talk to you too. What are you going to do if he is out there for 1-2 minutes waitin' on you? Are you going to ignore him? Don't let him dictate how long he will stay out there? Just break up the trip if he takes too long....Chris

Blaine Gallant did an article for Officiating.com that teaches us <i>several</i> ways to handle the "conference on the mound." It's titled "Bawls and Strikes," and we published it on 3 October, 2006. Try it. You'll find it appealing, entertaining, and instructive.

Okay LDUB, you win......... but I'll keep doing it the wrong way by not allowing coaches to argue my strike zone.

I'd still love to see one of your games where you allow the coaches to come out to the plate to "question a ball or strike" call any time that they want (wouldn't want to work it with you though). I hope that your games have time limits. Where do you umpire?

Another question, when the the coaches come out to "question a ball or strike" do you change your call? That would really be fun to see :)

I have an idea for you......at the pre-game meeting with the coaches just ask them what they'd like the strike zone to be, that way no arguing :eek:

Wait up, please. No one is saying that the umpire should permit coaches to argue balls and strikes. The only issue — a tiny one, at that — is whether such arguing rates an automatic ejection.

In the OBR a coach is ejected immediately if he "leaves his position" to argue balls and strikes.

There's no similar language in the NFHS, and the 1993 national test question emphasized that point.

I don't remember seeing that question on the 2005/2006 test.

I didn't say it was an automatic ejection. I said that I'd warn them then and if they continued I would eject them.

So Carl, what do you do to prevent it from happening if you don't eject them?

How many trips to the plate to argue balls/strikes do you allow? How about team captains, do you allow them to argue balls/strikes? And the other players? Do the FED rules specifically state that they can’t argue balls/strike?

No one who has posted in this thread except you has said that that was the wrong way.

I'm obviously not making myself plain.

How do I keep them from arguing balls and strikes? Well, to start with, I don't miss many pitches. The most a coach might say is, on his way to the third base box: "How far is he missing?" I'm not kidding.

But I teach other umpires what to do.

Stay with me, now: If you're an average umpire (and most umpires are average 'cause that's what "average" means) and the coach comes (leaves his position) to bark about balls and strikes: Throw the bum out!

I don't recall anyone saying the umpire should allow that nonsense.

But in an NFHS game, if he wants to give the coach a chance to shut up and behave, he may do so in the sure and certain knowledge that he is NOT ignoring a rule.

I hope I've clarified this.

In OBR, you MUST eject.
In NFHS, you don't have to unless you want to.

Obviously, you've a "want to" guy.

My feeling: If I have to stay out there in that heat, hs's gonna stay, too.

Now I see.....we are in agreement.

I was under the impression that you, along with LDUB, said that the coach was allowed to question balls and strikes.

Like yourself, I do not miss many pitches, but that doesn't stop some coaches from thinking that you have. From their angle they might think that they saw something other than what the pitch acutally was, but you know that. If they ask me, in passing, where their F1 is missing or how far is he missing I'll tell them (but F2 has probably provided him with that info already).

But what LDUB eluded to in his post (#22, 33 & 38) was that the coach is allowed to leave their position/dugout and come out to the plate to "question balls and strikes." If they do I'll warn them once and then if they ignore my warning you're right I become a "want to" guy. 'Obviously' the coach that ignores my warning has become a "want to" be ejected guy.

Maybe I'm a "don't want to" guy......I don't want to put up with their BS :)

Sorry Tim, but I work just as high, and ever higher levels games in "this area" as you do. This is NOT the "way it is done in our area". It may be the way YOU do it, but is NOT the way that is being taught by the association, or the college associations.

I have been to my share of camps conducted by NCAA umpires, some of the PAC 10 umpires who have NEVER shared anything like what you are saying about Oregon State, or any other school in the Pac 10. I know all the guys doing non-conference games too, and none of them have EVERY shared anything like what you are saying.

I hope you don't plan to share that kind of rubbish again this coming season IF you are allowed to work in the training aspect in our association. Some of your ideas are WAY out of line with the rest of the umpiring community!

I want names of them Tim. Really, PM them to me. I certainly have worked with all the 'top' umpires in our association, and know for a fact that they all have broken up mound conferences. The games I have worked with you, indeed you haven't.

You work games in "your way" for sure, but you don't necessarily work them "as expected in my area".

I have also received PM's from you with crazy put downs and 'threats', so it doesn't surprise me to read that others have too! I keep wondering why you have such a hard time with people calling you on your crap.

At best Tim, you are an ok high school umpire. I think most of the time you don't get grief because EVERYBODY knows how long you have been around. I don't really think it is a reflection of how good you are, because there certainly IS grumbling. I think you definitely have an inflated opinion about how good you are! ;)

Just to add my bucks worth. :)

I pay attention to who is coming out. If it is the pitching coach, I will give them a good 30-40 seconds to talk to their kid. I then purposely walk out to the mound and say something like "Okay guys, let's go". Pitching coaches don't argue balls and strikes. If they do (hasn't happened in years for me!) I would simply tell them to "can it coach". If they persisted, I would not hesitate to eject them. I will NOT allow an assistent coach to take pop shots at me concerning my calls. I don't care how "obvious" they are when they do it, I just don't allow it. It is not their job.

If the manager (okay, this is high school, Head Coach) comes out, and I know they have a pitching coach, he is most likely going to make a change. I get ready for that change, but I am not going out there for a bit. If he stalls for more than about 40 seconds, then I head out and simply ask once I get there "What are you going to do skip?". Usually, he is just stalling to allow his reliever to warm up some more. He usually calls him out when I get to the mound. I get a name/number and get out of there.

If the Head Coach starts to make comments about my calls/strike zone, I ask "Skip, are you out here to argue balls and strikes?". If he starts to argue them some more, I simply say "Conference is over, let's go". If he doesn't comply, he goes. I have only had this happen once in over 20 years!

In college games, I do it a bit different. If the Head Coach comes out, I head straight to the mound after he get's there. In college, the manager almost never comes out unless he is going to make a change. So, no use wasting any time. It is NOT a conference if he is changing pitchers eh?

Handling coaches who argue balls and strikes is a delicate thing. I think if you are a CONSISTENT umpire, you won't have much problems, but no matter how consistent you are, some coaches are going to be jerks some days, and you HAVE to deal with it. For the good of the game you MUST deal with it, and deal with it quickly.

I follow this:

1 - Seemingly ignore the first comment. Yes, I hear it and make a mental note of it, but I don't even give them the benefit of a look.

2 - On the second comment give them a "look". I MAKE SURE they know I heard them, and usually I have a bit of a scrowl on my face when I am looking. Believe it or not, 80% of the time, I hear nothing more from the coach after this!

3 - On the third comment. I call time (if need be), take off my mask, turn to the coach, stick my hand up with palm facing him and state in a voice that everybody in the county can hear "Coach, no more arguing balls and strikes. I have heard enough". Usually you get a bit of a chirp from them, and I follow that with "Coach, ENOUGH!!!". I put my mask back on and put the ball in play.

4 - If at any point after 3 the coach makes more comments about balls and strikes, I run him. It is VERY important that you do 3 correctly! EVERYBODY should know that you just warned the coach about arguing balls and strikes and that you will not take any more of that. If he makes another comment and you run him, nobody can say that you didn't warn him right?

The above is a VERY accepted proceedure for dealing with arguing balls and strikes.

If an assistent coach argues balls and strikes, I go straight to 3, then 4.

If I make it to step 2, and don't hear anything for a few innings, then hear another comment, I will probably repeat 2 again before going to 3. This prudent. The goal here is to shut the coach up. If 2 accomplishes that for a few innings, great, he earns "another chance" to change his evil ways! :) Once I get to 3 though, that is it. NO MORE MEANS NO MORE. If you give that warning, you HAVE to follow through with step 4! You have no other option and still retain integrity! If you get to step 3, then don't eject the coach the next time he argues a pitch, your credibility is shot! You will not get any respect. I don't feel sorry for you. You must not like baseball to allow this kind of behavior to continue in a game! If you get to 3 then don't follow with 4 the next time the coach argue a call, you should quit umpiring. You are simply bad for the game! You have set a precedent, and it is not a good one! :( You have made it difficult for the next umpire that has to deal with that jerk. You have made it difficult for the assignor to argue "You were warned coach" when he can come back and say "But the last guy warned me, but didn't throw me out the next time I did it!".

Again, if you are consistent with your strike zone, it doesn't matter if you call them in the dirt! If you are calling it for everybody in the dirt, the call was EVENLY called both ways, and nobody has a legitimate reason to argue any ball/strike call. They may still feel like you are a horse poop ump, but you were horse poop both ways! I have heard it time and time again from players, coaches, and fans. They just want consistency within THAT GAME! Yeah, at higher levels, it is expected that you are somewhat consistent with your peers who work games too. But, even at the college level, the coaches and players accept variations of how the strike zone it called, just as long as it is consistent!

Don't let a coach argue balls and strikes with you when you break up a mound conference. Don't argue with them. If they keep making comments, follow the above 4 steps. It will work wonderfully.

Yep,
 

This process as explained by pdxblue is nearly perfect.

It is almost exactly as trained at schools and clinics.

I think it is written very, very well and documents even the subtlties of dealing with a pitching coach rather than the head guy.

Obviously I am rethinking my position on this issue as it appears, as pointed out by pdxblue, I may have been dealing with incorrect information.

While pdxblue and I have our issues credit should be given when things are done well.

Regards,

Chiming in
 

As a professional umpire we were always, always drilled to "keep the game moving". As a result, we were taught that if you knew that a coach was coming out to the mound specifically to talk to YOU (as opposed to his pitcher), then we were not to wait to break up the conference. Rather, we were told to go to the mound and get it over with.

And in that situation I would:
(1) tell the manager "ok, let's go" (which would be immediately followed by comments about my strike zone).
(2) give the manager his warning about not arguing balls and strikes OR if his first comment was personal (for example, "your brutal today") I would eject.
(3) If the manager was only given a warning in step 2, then I would eject if he continued to argue without leaving the mound.

As for situations in which I did NOT think the manager came out solely to argue with me, but actually wanted to talk to their pitcher, I would handle breaking up a mound conference pretty much like pdxblue suggested...the only difference being that sometimes some managers did come out to only talk...and not only when they wanted the pitcher removed...so I wouldn't be quite as quick to go to the mound when the manager makes the trip.

As an aside, I have, fortunately, yet to have the situation where I thought the head coach was going out to the mound solely to talk to ME arise in any amateur game I've done since leaving the pro ranks.

I will also tell one war story of my most memorable conference at the mound. I will say, first, that I was having a "rough" day behind the plate (and I'm being generous). Anyways, the Red Sox affiliate's manager Dick Berandino came out for a conference at the mound...and I KNEW he was only coming out to have words with me.

So, when Berandino got there and started scraping dirt of the pitcher's plate without saying anything to his pitcher or catcher, I immediately started out to the mound by walking with deliberate speed.

Halfway to the mound, the Sox's pitching coach yells, from the dugout, "Blue, you're f***ing choking out there," while bringing his hands up to his throat. I stopped and immediately ejected him. He came sprinting out of the dugout, and I had no doubt he was going to run up and bump me...when Berandino, whom I believe is a former college football player at Holy Cross, grabbed his much younger and much bigger coach (who was sprinting) around his waist and stopped him. He yelled some more profanities and left.

Berandino just said, after the coach left, "you have to expect to take some when your missing pitches that much." I just said, "skip, I understand...but I ain't taking it from any assistant coach." He just left and we moved on.

Great post lawump. Thanks for pointing out the part about when they come out JUST to say something to you. You are right, get right on out there and deal with it. :)

I love telling assistant coaches to "can it". :) I love telling head coaches to can it when they are being jerks. :) Doesn't happen too often, but, it happens no matter how good you call games. I do know that I am NOT out there to take their pop shots and crap. I work hard at my job and don't give coaches grief about THEIR judgement calls! I expect the same respect!

Send a message
 

Tossing somebody out for arguing BS balls and strikes sends a message alright. If you don't wanna hear it, stay home. You really don't belong there. I wouldn't even bother to write an ejection report. I would just pack it in. I can imagine the smiles from a committee when they hear that coach A was tossed for arguing balls and strikes with YOU. I agree with Tee's statements about ejections. Throw the wrong guy out and you'll be looking for a new line of work. Careers are shortened and you will be scratched. Let's not fuss over details. Let the coach exchange words and remember those 3 P's before any ejection. Brutal wasn't one them.

Some people only understand winning and what's fair doesn't begin to enter the picture. Every call against one team is a bad call. You come to expect comments from one side or the other at a critical juncture. Coaches feel they have to say something to defend a player or to motivate the team. A real coach isn't afraid to step out and state his case or ask for an explanation after his team has been slighted. He doesn't go out there to say the ump has been doing a good job all day.

Well, you are welcome to work like this. But, that is definitely the "old school" thinking about arguing balls/strikes. It is the kind of thinking that in my opinion brings about a lot of displays of poor sportsmanship and escalation of problems on and off the field.

I ejected when I need to. These ejections don't hurt my "career". There is no such thing as "throwing out the wrong guy out" unless you got the wrong coach from the bench. :)

Hey, if a coach wants to come out and talk to me face to face, in normal conversational tones, he can say almost anything to me. But when they bark it from the dugout, I have little tolerance! I don't HAVE to have much tolerance either! No assignor in the last several years has been mad because I tossed a coach for arguing balls/strikes after following the procedures described above. They usually applaud that I DID eject them and make comments like "Good, sounds like he deserved it".

A coach has ONE job during a came, to instruct his players. His job is NOT to argue calls I make.

All that aside, I just don't like a coach being in my head like that. :)

Oh just GREAT!
 

SAump wrote:

". . . I agree with Tee's statements . . . "

Does anyone have a gun?

Regards,

I fail to understand why coaches feel it's necessary to argue ANY calls. What do they expect will happen? "Oh, yes, sir - you're right, he was safe ... don't know what I was thinking... bring your guy back out here." The arguments serve absolutely no purpose, and only antagonize the umpire and waste time. I can understand calm discussions when a rule might be misinterpreted, or even, "How did he balk, Blue?" But the arguments are nonsense.

Uhhhhhh...I think we are talking about "the fine line" here. ;)

I know with this new "getting the call right" era, a lot of coaches are asking umpires to "ask for help" in ANY situation where they don't agree with the call! LOL Maybe that is why they are arguing balls/strikes still. Maybe you will ask your partner for an opinion about the zone too! :rolleyes:

But I agree, what point does it serve.

Really though, I get far more riled up about the UMPIRE who will not deal with a coach who is barking from the dugout/coaching box about calls than I get about the coach. It seems like some guys are afraid to deal with it! It just deteriorates the game to a point where it is no fun for the fans, players, and me!

Usually when I shut a coach up, some of his own players thank me! :) Really, I would say it happens at least 50% of the time!

Please explain just how you take care of it very nicely.

Ummmm Hmmmmm........




Tim.

Aw geeze, another episode of <b>Global Moderators Gone Bad</b>. :rolleyes:

Chirping one way
 

Every ump here has been asked to call it both ways.
Not one (I am crossing my fingers here) has ever been asked to change a ball/strike call.
Most is innocent chatter you hear from game to game.
Coaches also approach umps and make comments between innings to/from dugout.
Short unsolicited suggestions for improvement come from both teams.
I believe most of them say the same things throughout the season.
The good teams find a way to win and go home happy.
The bad teams find a way to lose and blame the ump.
None of it is profane, prolonged, or personal.